Night Vision Goggles (NVG discussions merged)
I'm with tc: the neck and eye strain is a on issue. Balance, correct adjustment, and just getting used to them avoids this. I have done 45 hrs of NVG in a month with no sore neck, and no eye strain. But. like anything, you do need to get used to them.
Congratulations on getting this up and running. NVG is the biggest advancement to night flying safety that I have seen in my career. Such safety enhancements should not be restricted to Police/EMS, as per the accident report into the Strathclyde EC135.
The Victorian Police are the vangaurd here in Oz and through some fantastic work, they should be up and running shortly. The entire Oz industry owes those guys a thanks.
I have two questions relating to the UK file:
1. What is the minmum standard of NVG that is acceptable?
2. Why have they not included "loss of visual reference on take off and landing" procedures as a requirement? I imagine that due to rain, the dust issue is probably a lot less likely in the UK than here in Oz, but what about snow or non compatible scene lighting causing flareout (this concern is related to the first question though).
Congratulations on getting this up and running. NVG is the biggest advancement to night flying safety that I have seen in my career. Such safety enhancements should not be restricted to Police/EMS, as per the accident report into the Strathclyde EC135.
The Victorian Police are the vangaurd here in Oz and through some fantastic work, they should be up and running shortly. The entire Oz industry owes those guys a thanks.
I have two questions relating to the UK file:
1. What is the minmum standard of NVG that is acceptable?
2. Why have they not included "loss of visual reference on take off and landing" procedures as a requirement? I imagine that due to rain, the dust issue is probably a lot less likely in the UK than here in Oz, but what about snow or non compatible scene lighting causing flareout (this concern is related to the first question though).
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TC, great news on getting NVG. I have hundreds of hours in differing environments and love using them. 5 hours a night used to be our limit, neck strain usually appeared after about 3 hours. However, we really don't need them in liverpool, the very very rare occasions they would be used would not justify the training burden. Other rural units will love them, even for 1500' transits, the world changes for the better. 
I see the floater question going one of two ways:
1. Floaters will be trained and kept current on NVIS at the operators expense. A problem will arise if, like other role equipment, everyone does their own thing and buys different equipment.
2. Floaters will not be NVIS trained and when a floater is covering the unit will not have an NVIS capability.
The bottom line is going to be cost.
FNW
1. Floaters will be trained and kept current on NVIS at the operators expense. A problem will arise if, like other role equipment, everyone does their own thing and buys different equipment.
2. Floaters will not be NVIS trained and when a floater is covering the unit will not have an NVIS capability.
The bottom line is going to be cost.
FNW
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TC;
I have a fair few hours myself on mil NVG with no 'after effects', less the temporary 'brown eye'!, however with the profiles that I fly these days, (transit to scene - max 10 mins - orbit for hour+ looking down and right - or pursuit with head looking right and rear constantly for perhaps up to 45 mins, then 10 min transit back), I cannot see there not being any neck fatigue/strain issues.
Perhaps those already using NVIS have different sortie profiles day to day, but this possible RSI should be seriously considered.
By the way, scenario - unit with Stage1 only has to land in the Ulu.
Revert to mortal, correct?
(NVG above 500ft wasn't even logged in days gone by!)
SS
There is no problem wearing this kit whatsoever for the operative so lets quash that rumour.
Perhaps those already using NVIS have different sortie profiles day to day, but this possible RSI should be seriously considered.
By the way, scenario - unit with Stage1 only has to land in the Ulu.
Revert to mortal, correct?
(NVG above 500ft wasn't even logged in days gone by!)
SS
Ariston: we dont stow during flight, they are worn permanently.
However if stowage was needed there is plenty of room in the cargo bay (accessible in flt).
There is headroom in the EC135 - just! It varies from between 5" and 1" dependant on individual so far anyway!
Letsby: Believe me there have been NO comments/complaints re: neck strain eye strain in 13yrs of nightly use...how long would you like us to fly with them until you're convinced there is no problem?
As discussed, it is the profile we fly. Every night sortie is slightly different, but every one involves a lot of head movement.
Your 7hrs in 10 should read 5-6hrs in 8-9. Have another look at Sect 2 of the POM I.
No-one flies that many night hrs in the police, no-where near!
Floater:
If his contract company want to train him up, they will. They are freely issuing IR's at the moment and an NVIS qual is peanuts compared to the IR!
If a floater turns up at an NVIS unit, non NVIS qualified, then that Unit simply does not fly pilot NVIS that evening - big deal. The Observers can still fly with them though.
Helmetfire: The current favourite is the FENNS 2000,Gen III. I'm not familiar with this model yet as it is the successor to ours (700+) but apparently they have exceptional 'flareout' capabilities and if they are anything like ours cope admirably with large Urban light pollution.
Takeoff criteria like all other aspects of police night flying MUST comply with existing weather and visual cues. IF the goggs fail (unlikely because of parallel power supplies) then we revert to normal (mortal) cues.
Jayteeto: I would concur with your requirements to a certain degree. Our findings have been that a massive spin off for the Obs is that coupled with Nightsun and NVG the dark shadows of buildings become almost 'daylight' in texture and help enormously with tracking hiding suspects.
Silsoesid: Correct!
However if stowage was needed there is plenty of room in the cargo bay (accessible in flt).
There is headroom in the EC135 - just! It varies from between 5" and 1" dependant on individual so far anyway!
Letsby: Believe me there have been NO comments/complaints re: neck strain eye strain in 13yrs of nightly use...how long would you like us to fly with them until you're convinced there is no problem?
As discussed, it is the profile we fly. Every night sortie is slightly different, but every one involves a lot of head movement.
Your 7hrs in 10 should read 5-6hrs in 8-9. Have another look at Sect 2 of the POM I.
No-one flies that many night hrs in the police, no-where near!
Floater:
If his contract company want to train him up, they will. They are freely issuing IR's at the moment and an NVIS qual is peanuts compared to the IR!
If a floater turns up at an NVIS unit, non NVIS qualified, then that Unit simply does not fly pilot NVIS that evening - big deal. The Observers can still fly with them though.
Helmetfire: The current favourite is the FENNS 2000,Gen III. I'm not familiar with this model yet as it is the successor to ours (700+) but apparently they have exceptional 'flareout' capabilities and if they are anything like ours cope admirably with large Urban light pollution.
Takeoff criteria like all other aspects of police night flying MUST comply with existing weather and visual cues. IF the goggs fail (unlikely because of parallel power supplies) then we revert to normal (mortal) cues.
Jayteeto: I would concur with your requirements to a certain degree. Our findings have been that a massive spin off for the Obs is that coupled with Nightsun and NVG the dark shadows of buildings become almost 'daylight' in texture and help enormously with tracking hiding suspects.
Silsoesid: Correct!
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TC;
Can you just confirm that you don't stow the helmet goggles in flight?
ie push them up on top of the helmet. (which would add about 6 inches to head height!
Permanently down, would surely cause a whole lot of problems for anyone operating near a lit site.
And should you have to revert to mortal, you are left with a set of redundant goggs obscuring your view.
Multiple
SS
Ariston: we dont stow during flight, they are worn permanently.
However if stowage was needed there is plenty of room in the cargo bay (accessible in flt).
There is headroom in the EC135 - just! It varies from between 5" and 1" dependant on individual so far anyway!
However if stowage was needed there is plenty of room in the cargo bay (accessible in flt).
There is headroom in the EC135 - just! It varies from between 5" and 1" dependant on individual so far anyway!
ie push them up on top of the helmet. (which would add about 6 inches to head height!
Permanently down, would surely cause a whole lot of problems for anyone operating near a lit site.
And should you have to revert to mortal, you are left with a set of redundant goggs obscuring your view.
Multiple
SS
Sorry, by stowed I thought you meant uncoupled from the base plate. They are "stowed" in the 'UP' position on the helmet and this is where the height clearance kicks in.
Reverting to normal means flicking them up - a 2 second activity.
Reverting to normal means flicking them up - a 2 second activity.
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Thanks for the clarification TC - I didn't think stowing the goggles in the boot when faced with an emergency was a viable option
Sid's point with regards to an extra 6 inches head height with them in the 'up' position was the point being made by Ariston. What does the pilot do when there is only 1-5 inches of headroom available?
"Your 7hrs in 10 should read 5-6hrs in 8-9. Have another look at Sect 2 of the POM I"
Can you clarify that? Para 6 is applicable to the standard variation in para 24 - ergo 7 in 10? I always worked to 6 in 10 until it was pointed out that I was wrong (so it wouldn’t be the first time)
Agree about not getting anywhere near that normally
Sid's point with regards to an extra 6 inches head height with them in the 'up' position was the point being made by Ariston. What does the pilot do when there is only 1-5 inches of headroom available?
"Your 7hrs in 10 should read 5-6hrs in 8-9. Have another look at Sect 2 of the POM I"
Can you clarify that? Para 6 is applicable to the standard variation in para 24 - ergo 7 in 10? I always worked to 6 in 10 until it was pointed out that I was wrong (so it wouldn’t be the first time)
Agree about not getting anywhere near that normally
For the hard of hearing:
1" - 5" is the clearance AFTER stowage.
Para 24 actually only mentions the max FDP, NOT flying hours. There is no mention of max flying hours specifically in para 24?
The POM I fails to clarify.
You're hard work sometimes aren't you Lestby
1" - 5" is the clearance AFTER stowage.
Para 24 actually only mentions the max FDP, NOT flying hours. There is no mention of max flying hours specifically in para 24?
The POM I fails to clarify.
You're hard work sometimes aren't you Lestby
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
TC;
Nicest bit of back attempted back pedalling I have seen in a while! 
However, just to clarify, when not in use, the goggles are stowed in the 'UP' position on the helmet in the cargo bay?
As they are "worn permanently", how does this work?
Not only am I hard of hearing, I must also be hard of reading!!
SS
(post 2)
Ariston: we dont stow during flight, they are worn permanently.
However if stowage was needed there is plenty of room in the cargo bay (accessible in flt).
There is headroom in the EC135 - just! It varies from between 5" and 1" dependant on individual so far anyway!
.
.
(post 3)
Sorry, by stowed I thought you meant uncoupled from the base plate. They are "stowed" in the 'UP' position on the helmet and this is where the height clearance kicks in.
.
.
(post 4)
For the hard of hearing:
1" - 5" is the clearance AFTER stowage.
Ariston: we dont stow during flight, they are worn permanently.
However if stowage was needed there is plenty of room in the cargo bay (accessible in flt).
There is headroom in the EC135 - just! It varies from between 5" and 1" dependant on individual so far anyway!
.
.
(post 3)
Sorry, by stowed I thought you meant uncoupled from the base plate. They are "stowed" in the 'UP' position on the helmet and this is where the height clearance kicks in.
.
.
(post 4)
For the hard of hearing:
1" - 5" is the clearance AFTER stowage.
However, just to clarify, when not in use, the goggles are stowed in the 'UP' position on the helmet in the cargo bay?
As they are "worn permanently", how does this work?
Not only am I hard of hearing, I must also be hard of reading!!
SS
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Which type
If you buy the correct type of NVG in the first place then you won't have to worry about where to hide the NVG in those long 1 hour orbits!
Why not do like the rest of the world and use ANVIS, they simply pull off and sit around your neck on a piece of string when not required for extended periods. Re-connecting is simple, it's the technique used for years by militaries all over the world.
So many points from the previous threads on NVG and this current one that when I get back from our current det I’ll address them one at a time.
We shouldn't be re-inventing the wheel now we finally have a UK clearance!
And for some, not all, of those ex-mil Police Pilots out there, try a modern set of NVG over a well lit area! It’s not Bessbrook in 1985 any more, technology has advanced since then.
Why not do like the rest of the world and use ANVIS, they simply pull off and sit around your neck on a piece of string when not required for extended periods. Re-connecting is simple, it's the technique used for years by militaries all over the world.
So many points from the previous threads on NVG and this current one that when I get back from our current det I’ll address them one at a time.
We shouldn't be re-inventing the wheel now we finally have a UK clearance!
And for some, not all, of those ex-mil Police Pilots out there, try a modern set of NVG over a well lit area! It’s not Bessbrook in 1985 any more, technology has advanced since then.
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I know the POM Pt 1 fails to clarify - which is why I questioned your 'clarification'
5 inches headroom with the goggles up in a 135? Don't think so old chap.
Quite agree stas-fan, ANVIS 9 is the way to go - unfortunately the CAA stipulate a dual power source which I believe rules them out.
5 inches headroom with the goggles up in a 135? Don't think so old chap.
Quite agree stas-fan, ANVIS 9 is the way to go - unfortunately the CAA stipulate a dual power source which I believe rules them out.
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If you buy the correct type of NVG in the first place then you won't have to worry about where to hide the NVG in those long 1 hour orbits!
Re-connecting is simple, it's the technique used for years by militaries all over the world.
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ANVIS and power supply
Letsbe; I think ANVIS are now approved for use but you can't use the ANVIS that use lithium battery power because you are not allowed to carry spare Lithiums for any system on board (PAOC dangerous air cargo refers) I don't think there is a dispensation, and if there was you would need a metal ammo box to keep them in, hardly handy when you need to change a battery! I have used the ANVIS with 2x 2 AA batteries that last about 20 hours a pair, I haven't flown a 40 hour night mission yet so I thought they were adequate!
SSID: just offering suggestions to operators who may get neck strain. Also the reason to take them off in the over the scene situation is if for example you are not up to anything other than FLIR monitoring. {personnally I wouldn't take them off but some do and some don't)
sf
SSID: just offering suggestions to operators who may get neck strain. Also the reason to take them off in the over the scene situation is if for example you are not up to anything other than FLIR monitoring. {personnally I wouldn't take them off but some do and some don't)
sf
Letsby: the ANVIS 9 has a dual power source, and can be powered by however the opertator chooses. Some mil outfits elect to use aircraft power, but most (in my experience) use the dual battery system. 2 seperate battery "slides" of 2 x AAs are available to power both tubes, with a switch to select between power sources.
What I was really after was what standard of acuity, gain and resolution you guys are stipulating. Did you go for the RTCA draft TSO or did the UK stipulate a model number?
TC: On the take off and landing question I was not refering to weather minima, I am asking why there is no provision for loss of visual reference on take off and landing due to brown out, white out, flare out, or goggle failure, etc.
Over here, in reference to the misunderstanding of the stowage issue, we say "goggled up" to mean the goggs are in the operational position and are being used, and "degoggled" to infer the non operational position, which is rotated up and away from the eyes in the ANVIS series.
I assume tc was measuring clearance whilst degoggled, not whilst they were stowed in the back of the helicopter.
What I was really after was what standard of acuity, gain and resolution you guys are stipulating. Did you go for the RTCA draft TSO or did the UK stipulate a model number?
TC: On the take off and landing question I was not refering to weather minima, I am asking why there is no provision for loss of visual reference on take off and landing due to brown out, white out, flare out, or goggle failure, etc.
Over here, in reference to the misunderstanding of the stowage issue, we say "goggled up" to mean the goggs are in the operational position and are being used, and "degoggled" to infer the non operational position, which is rotated up and away from the eyes in the ANVIS series.
I assume tc was measuring clearance whilst degoggled, not whilst they were stowed in the back of the helicopter.
