Silence on Pakistan operations
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Good points continue to be added to this thread.
Cylic H, a competitive response from the commercial side of heliops is understandable. You do good work.
In the Tsunami, the first ones there were operating in about as short a time as could be expected of a specialised response unit. The variety of operators caused some inefficiency, in that some were allowed to cross hire to NGOs other than the one which had hired them, some were not. That left machines on the ground when the hirer had no work that day. A response unit would put itself under the control of the affected country's disaster relief organisation. Probably. That may depend on the country, and what is left of it.
The difficulty I see with the commercial operators is funding. I heard on the radio today that the helicopter operation in Pakistan has two more days funds, then it will cease. I doubt it will, as someone will find some funds from somewhere, but the fundamental problem remains that unless you are pre-funded, the NGOs will not be able to hire you when their contributors get donor fatigue.
On reflection I take back my comments that this unit can go commercial when not required for relief work. They won't be kicking their heels and the crews losing currency. With the size of the organisation for the forseeable future, they will be employed full time supporting disaster relief. Darfur still needs help. Aceh still needs help. Congo could use help. And of course, now Pakistan. We can all predict a "next" disaster area, and we know it won't be long. Wherever MSF are working, (over 80 countries now) there may be a need to move supplies and people if the terrain and time warrant.
You are right that NGOs have a bad reputation for burning charity funds, the infamous white Landcruiser being the common visible example. Even with a lean mean organisation this helicopter response unit will be expensive. There comes a point where a society decides that the cost of saving a human life is too expensive, and figures from US$300,000 to M1.5 per life have been derived by insurers in various countries. If the unit costs more than that to operate per life saved, then it may well be that the funds are better spent on Malaria research and bednets.
Tony C has a forum up and running on a Helicopter Response Unit. He will no doubt introduce it when he is content with its performance.
Cylic H, a competitive response from the commercial side of heliops is understandable. You do good work.
In the Tsunami, the first ones there were operating in about as short a time as could be expected of a specialised response unit. The variety of operators caused some inefficiency, in that some were allowed to cross hire to NGOs other than the one which had hired them, some were not. That left machines on the ground when the hirer had no work that day. A response unit would put itself under the control of the affected country's disaster relief organisation. Probably. That may depend on the country, and what is left of it.
The difficulty I see with the commercial operators is funding. I heard on the radio today that the helicopter operation in Pakistan has two more days funds, then it will cease. I doubt it will, as someone will find some funds from somewhere, but the fundamental problem remains that unless you are pre-funded, the NGOs will not be able to hire you when their contributors get donor fatigue.
On reflection I take back my comments that this unit can go commercial when not required for relief work. They won't be kicking their heels and the crews losing currency. With the size of the organisation for the forseeable future, they will be employed full time supporting disaster relief. Darfur still needs help. Aceh still needs help. Congo could use help. And of course, now Pakistan. We can all predict a "next" disaster area, and we know it won't be long. Wherever MSF are working, (over 80 countries now) there may be a need to move supplies and people if the terrain and time warrant.
You are right that NGOs have a bad reputation for burning charity funds, the infamous white Landcruiser being the common visible example. Even with a lean mean organisation this helicopter response unit will be expensive. There comes a point where a society decides that the cost of saving a human life is too expensive, and figures from US$300,000 to M1.5 per life have been derived by insurers in various countries. If the unit costs more than that to operate per life saved, then it may well be that the funds are better spent on Malaria research and bednets.
Tony C has a forum up and running on a Helicopter Response Unit. He will no doubt introduce it when he is content with its performance.
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http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers16%5Cpaper1594.html
This paper has some interesting content related to the current Pakistan operations. The site itself often contains papers valuable for anyone interested in the region, although its aggressively pro-Indian bias indicates that the site is not unconnected with the Indian intelligence "community". Well worth a look though.
This paper has some interesting content related to the current Pakistan operations. The site itself often contains papers valuable for anyone interested in the region, although its aggressively pro-Indian bias indicates that the site is not unconnected with the Indian intelligence "community". Well worth a look though.
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The saag papers are a very interesting read and informative, as are the suggestions that terrorist training camps were heavily hit and the notion that the US has operatives gathering intelligence.
Probably a fair bit of paranoia all round, I would have thought! India against Pakistan, the west and the different factions of the mujahideen. The Pakistan government would be sensitive about the continued existence of these camps and/or to any preemptive interpretation of the facts to indicate their operation.
Well worth the time!
Probably a fair bit of paranoia all round, I would have thought! India against Pakistan, the west and the different factions of the mujahideen. The Pakistan government would be sensitive about the continued existence of these camps and/or to any preemptive interpretation of the facts to indicate their operation.
Well worth the time!
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Pakistan etc
Cargo Cult, et al,
There seems to be some misunderstanding on how the UN and NGO community react to disasters and what the processes are in contracting aircraft in any given relief effort.
The principal users of air support are UNDPKO and UNWFP, DPKO for peacekeeping and WFP in disaster relief, although the NGO community is becoming a bit more savvy now in soliciting donor funds, the main contractors remain the UN agencies. Having said that, any operator wishing to supply aircraft whenever an emergency breaks out needs to be a registered vendor of the United Nations. For all you that are interested in receiving offers to participate in RFO's go to www.ungm.org and start the registration process [it will take anywhere from 3-12 months]. Secondly, your company will need to undergo an audit that includes financial scrutiny and operational minimum pre-requisites. Given that UN guidelines for the carriage of UN personnel are equivalent to any 1st world regulations governing charter operations at night or in IMC, nearly all aircraft contracted are twin engine IFR capable ships, and most notably, because of the price these are Russian machines.
Because of the acute shortage in the marketplace of MI17,s, the aircraft of choice in the third world, prices have reached unprecedented levels and are not about to come back down anytime soon, however these remain, even at these levels relatively competitive given their payloads. To stop second guessing on what is actually operating in Pakistan its probably more useful to check out www.unjlc.org that provides an overview of operations in some of the regions WFP and both UNJLC have a presence. Its mandate is inter-agency coordination and this includes the prioritisation of helo ops. The tragedy of this particular mission, is, as stated, donor fatigue but don't beleive what you hear on the radio, we are funded thro' till the end of November and also have support from the likes of different governments that provide donations of helicopters "in kind". In other words, instead of giving WFP money, they contract aircraft, deploy them, manage them but have WFPHAS do the actual tasking. Moreover,in situations such as this all aicraft, whether they be contracted by IFRC/OXFAM SDC etc all come under the umbrella of the WFP Humanitarian Air Service[HAS] so as to utilise and make the most of available capacity to the common user group.
This does not always work out the way it should as there are on occasion conflicts of interest and in the end every agency is vying for more control over the relief effort through contracting their own assetts. Its a cut throat industry within itself. Brokers are typically responsible for the price wars but have backed off in recent times so the market is steadying, i would like to suggest though that an organisation such as you have mentioned HSF really is a bit of a pipe dream unless you have a conglomerate of operators in a JV or partnership that have very deep pockets to cover the first months of operation untill you get your invoices in and paid.Mobilisation is typically paid up front and then invoices submitted at the completion of the first months operation – ie at the end of every calendar month, therefore days in country are pro-rated on the minimum guaranteed hrs for the first months work. Your best bet as adhoc clients to disaster relief ops is to send in a list of available assets with a brief proposal ie costing on an ACMI basis, inclusive of all incidentals separately ie what you will budget for food/accommodation/transport/communications/management etc and send it on to us here at UNJLC as other operators do and we then fwd the offers to agencies in need of helicopters. Ie just go into www.unjlc.org and send to relevant section, if you have a spare 747 or IL76 then pass this info to strategic airlift, otherwise send the helo info to the generic address of [email protected]. This may change in the near future and if it does I will update you.
I hope this is of some use to you and although contracting of singles is rare, we are about to position an additional 4 lamas into Muzzaffarabad to get to the really difficult villages further up the hills in Kashmir purely for long lining work so there is scope for B3’s and L3’s 407 etc for reccon and similar, particularly for NGO’s who do not employ the same criteria for contracting as say DPKO/ICRC and WFP.
Cheers,
Nick
There seems to be some misunderstanding on how the UN and NGO community react to disasters and what the processes are in contracting aircraft in any given relief effort.
The principal users of air support are UNDPKO and UNWFP, DPKO for peacekeeping and WFP in disaster relief, although the NGO community is becoming a bit more savvy now in soliciting donor funds, the main contractors remain the UN agencies. Having said that, any operator wishing to supply aircraft whenever an emergency breaks out needs to be a registered vendor of the United Nations. For all you that are interested in receiving offers to participate in RFO's go to www.ungm.org and start the registration process [it will take anywhere from 3-12 months]. Secondly, your company will need to undergo an audit that includes financial scrutiny and operational minimum pre-requisites. Given that UN guidelines for the carriage of UN personnel are equivalent to any 1st world regulations governing charter operations at night or in IMC, nearly all aircraft contracted are twin engine IFR capable ships, and most notably, because of the price these are Russian machines.
Because of the acute shortage in the marketplace of MI17,s, the aircraft of choice in the third world, prices have reached unprecedented levels and are not about to come back down anytime soon, however these remain, even at these levels relatively competitive given their payloads. To stop second guessing on what is actually operating in Pakistan its probably more useful to check out www.unjlc.org that provides an overview of operations in some of the regions WFP and both UNJLC have a presence. Its mandate is inter-agency coordination and this includes the prioritisation of helo ops. The tragedy of this particular mission, is, as stated, donor fatigue but don't beleive what you hear on the radio, we are funded thro' till the end of November and also have support from the likes of different governments that provide donations of helicopters "in kind". In other words, instead of giving WFP money, they contract aircraft, deploy them, manage them but have WFPHAS do the actual tasking. Moreover,in situations such as this all aicraft, whether they be contracted by IFRC/OXFAM SDC etc all come under the umbrella of the WFP Humanitarian Air Service[HAS] so as to utilise and make the most of available capacity to the common user group.
This does not always work out the way it should as there are on occasion conflicts of interest and in the end every agency is vying for more control over the relief effort through contracting their own assetts. Its a cut throat industry within itself. Brokers are typically responsible for the price wars but have backed off in recent times so the market is steadying, i would like to suggest though that an organisation such as you have mentioned HSF really is a bit of a pipe dream unless you have a conglomerate of operators in a JV or partnership that have very deep pockets to cover the first months of operation untill you get your invoices in and paid.Mobilisation is typically paid up front and then invoices submitted at the completion of the first months operation – ie at the end of every calendar month, therefore days in country are pro-rated on the minimum guaranteed hrs for the first months work. Your best bet as adhoc clients to disaster relief ops is to send in a list of available assets with a brief proposal ie costing on an ACMI basis, inclusive of all incidentals separately ie what you will budget for food/accommodation/transport/communications/management etc and send it on to us here at UNJLC as other operators do and we then fwd the offers to agencies in need of helicopters. Ie just go into www.unjlc.org and send to relevant section, if you have a spare 747 or IL76 then pass this info to strategic airlift, otherwise send the helo info to the generic address of [email protected]. This may change in the near future and if it does I will update you.
I hope this is of some use to you and although contracting of singles is rare, we are about to position an additional 4 lamas into Muzzaffarabad to get to the really difficult villages further up the hills in Kashmir purely for long lining work so there is scope for B3’s and L3’s 407 etc for reccon and similar, particularly for NGO’s who do not employ the same criteria for contracting as say DPKO/ICRC and WFP.
Cheers,
Nick
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Heli Ops in Balakot, Pakistan
Hi all,
Just to add my 2 cents worth, I am part of a 3 man team with a B212 supporting the United Arab Emirates Armed Forces.
We are a civilian outfit providing air support for a military hospital in Balakot. We set off only 3 days after the earthquake, and I myself finished a 6 month contract only to turn around and launch in 36 hrs to Pakistan.
Most of the air support is provided by military forces from various countries, and only a few like ourselves that are not.
The people I work with have been exposed to working in countries like Yemen, Iran and Pakistan. So while most people's comments are correct in stating the problems working here, it is essentially apart of an equation. One has to solve these problems to achieve objectives...I mean c'mon we work on heli's right?!?
If one keeps a level head and temper then, like me, you will have a great time knowing you are helping people, and seeing the unspoilt mountains of Kashmir while doing it.
Lets not fool ourselves here, we are all just a link in the chain, but slowly and surely we are making a difference. Rather than making comments about inefficiencies, get in there and make a ripple.
If anyone is interested, I have some great photo's of our op's here. If someone is able to help me get them posted I would only be too happy to share.
Cheers for now
SS
Just to add my 2 cents worth, I am part of a 3 man team with a B212 supporting the United Arab Emirates Armed Forces.
We are a civilian outfit providing air support for a military hospital in Balakot. We set off only 3 days after the earthquake, and I myself finished a 6 month contract only to turn around and launch in 36 hrs to Pakistan.
Most of the air support is provided by military forces from various countries, and only a few like ourselves that are not.
The people I work with have been exposed to working in countries like Yemen, Iran and Pakistan. So while most people's comments are correct in stating the problems working here, it is essentially apart of an equation. One has to solve these problems to achieve objectives...I mean c'mon we work on heli's right?!?
If one keeps a level head and temper then, like me, you will have a great time knowing you are helping people, and seeing the unspoilt mountains of Kashmir while doing it.
Lets not fool ourselves here, we are all just a link in the chain, but slowly and surely we are making a difference. Rather than making comments about inefficiencies, get in there and make a ripple.
If anyone is interested, I have some great photo's of our op's here. If someone is able to help me get them posted I would only be too happy to share.
Cheers for now
SS
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By working together and by putting the right ideas and plans in to action somethings can be achieved. Some balls are in motion and some response companies are very keen to contract helicopters and thier support to aid the relief, rescue and support efforts in places like pakistan and anywhere else in the world.
I believe it is through the response companies and charities as a contract that helicopters can be best used, after all most of these units already have good politcal staus in these countries, lets not try to set up an all new charitable organisation but provide a service to those already existing.
I have been looking in to this service for sometime before the thread emerged and i have recieved great interest.
For those of you who are happy to contribute to a posotive service please pm me and i will give you the link to my forum dedicated purely to this topic.
I believe it is through the response companies and charities as a contract that helicopters can be best used, after all most of these units already have good politcal staus in these countries, lets not try to set up an all new charitable organisation but provide a service to those already existing.
I have been looking in to this service for sometime before the thread emerged and i have recieved great interest.
For those of you who are happy to contribute to a posotive service please pm me and i will give you the link to my forum dedicated purely to this topic.
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Help During Crisis
Hi all,
found another 2 cents on the ground,
As far as NGO's and other organisations go, helping in relief efforts where ever it may be, I believe the essential form of a body helping in crisis is "liquid".
Whilst it is a noble idea to have a structured form when providing effort during emergencies to maintain efficiency, I think that you need satellite efforts that make up the collective parts of an international effort.
I think it's a fundamental flaw in thinking that you can collectively organise people from different parts of the world, with varying approaches to problems, access to resources and lets face it...agenda's and run it in a smooth and efficient manner in line with the mechanics of global corporations.
I have seen on the ground how small teams and organisations can work in a particular part of an effected area and make a difference together. And if all aid bodies are working in this way, you are in effect working in a greater organised effort. How can one apply effiency to relief efforts in the middle of emergencies?
If in doubt just look at collective bodies and their associated problems with making decisions and having clear-efficient directions i.e UN and the EU. And are these bodies held accountable in the same way?!?
Dont get me wrong, when it comes to re-building and re-habilitation, then you can plan and structure. But the essence of helping in an emergency is to respond and react.
...just a thought
SS
found another 2 cents on the ground,
As far as NGO's and other organisations go, helping in relief efforts where ever it may be, I believe the essential form of a body helping in crisis is "liquid".
Whilst it is a noble idea to have a structured form when providing effort during emergencies to maintain efficiency, I think that you need satellite efforts that make up the collective parts of an international effort.
I think it's a fundamental flaw in thinking that you can collectively organise people from different parts of the world, with varying approaches to problems, access to resources and lets face it...agenda's and run it in a smooth and efficient manner in line with the mechanics of global corporations.
I have seen on the ground how small teams and organisations can work in a particular part of an effected area and make a difference together. And if all aid bodies are working in this way, you are in effect working in a greater organised effort. How can one apply effiency to relief efforts in the middle of emergencies?
If in doubt just look at collective bodies and their associated problems with making decisions and having clear-efficient directions i.e UN and the EU. And are these bodies held accountable in the same way?!?
Dont get me wrong, when it comes to re-building and re-habilitation, then you can plan and structure. But the essence of helping in an emergency is to respond and react.
...just a thought
SS
hi everybody
Guys, there are a lot of comparisons being drawn between Aceh & Pakistan, noting similarities etc. this are very misleading. Aceh was unique in terms of disaster response, and not just in terms of finance.
The single greatest constraint normally faced (in a country with a government that is…) is officialdom and the corresponding ego massaging, bribing, cajoling etc. Someone who has never dealt with this will perhaps find it hard to understand why people can impede assistance to their fellow countrymen for their own petty reasons but this is a fact of life. Any of you guys working in certain areas of the “Dark Continent” should have a fair idea what I mean.
In Aceh there was no officialdom – they got washed away. It was a free for all.
In terms of air ops it took several weeks for the Indonesian military to get a handle on the situation, even then it was pretty limited. They brought in approved LZ’s and limited pre-approved flights for all helos, the latter was ignored once it became obvious that they weren’t monitoring – in fact for the first few weeks no one was – there were estimates of over 400 movements a day from BA. (this figure was later exceeded – officially this time) The ramp at Banda was complete chaos – look for a clear spot on the ground/patch in the sky & go for it…
Then you’ve got the cowboys, how about one crew doing an offshore trip (no floats etc) to an island, complete with ferry tanks which were refuelled by hand pump from 205 litre drums mid flight by inexperienced tree huggers… who “had” to get there…
The only efficient way to mount an air ops response is to centralise tasking of all assets and prioritise what machine goes where, with what and when. This tasking should be agreed by the aid actors involved. This is what the UN in various guises (UNOCHA/UNJLC) attempts to do. With the plethora of aid agencies and their differing priorities, donor pressure to make an impact etc this becomes almost impossible, and this doesn’t take into account the VIP/press trips that soak up your capacity. Don’t for a minute underestimate the inter-organisation rivalry that happens in these circumstances either – I may have a helo idle but I’m buggered if I’m giving it to you… even on a cost sharing basis.
Meanwhile the suffering continues…
The single greatest constraint normally faced (in a country with a government that is…) is officialdom and the corresponding ego massaging, bribing, cajoling etc. Someone who has never dealt with this will perhaps find it hard to understand why people can impede assistance to their fellow countrymen for their own petty reasons but this is a fact of life. Any of you guys working in certain areas of the “Dark Continent” should have a fair idea what I mean.
In Aceh there was no officialdom – they got washed away. It was a free for all.
In terms of air ops it took several weeks for the Indonesian military to get a handle on the situation, even then it was pretty limited. They brought in approved LZ’s and limited pre-approved flights for all helos, the latter was ignored once it became obvious that they weren’t monitoring – in fact for the first few weeks no one was – there were estimates of over 400 movements a day from BA. (this figure was later exceeded – officially this time) The ramp at Banda was complete chaos – look for a clear spot on the ground/patch in the sky & go for it…
Then you’ve got the cowboys, how about one crew doing an offshore trip (no floats etc) to an island, complete with ferry tanks which were refuelled by hand pump from 205 litre drums mid flight by inexperienced tree huggers… who “had” to get there…
The only efficient way to mount an air ops response is to centralise tasking of all assets and prioritise what machine goes where, with what and when. This tasking should be agreed by the aid actors involved. This is what the UN in various guises (UNOCHA/UNJLC) attempts to do. With the plethora of aid agencies and their differing priorities, donor pressure to make an impact etc this becomes almost impossible, and this doesn’t take into account the VIP/press trips that soak up your capacity. Don’t for a minute underestimate the inter-organisation rivalry that happens in these circumstances either – I may have a helo idle but I’m buggered if I’m giving it to you… even on a cost sharing basis.
Meanwhile the suffering continues…
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From today's news.
An outstandingly good, indeed heartbreaking, CNN report showed British Chinooks at villages where up to now there has still been NO aid of any kind yet...
Many people - mostly children - are now suffering amputations and worse as a consequence of untreated (relatively) minor injuries.
A total of 3 million people are displaced.
A report in The Guardian indicates that a total of only 78 helicopters are currently operating in the region.
An outstandingly good, indeed heartbreaking, CNN report showed British Chinooks at villages where up to now there has still been NO aid of any kind yet...
Many people - mostly children - are now suffering amputations and worse as a consequence of untreated (relatively) minor injuries.
A total of 3 million people are displaced.
A report in The Guardian indicates that a total of only 78 helicopters are currently operating in the region.
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I was asked to help get a helo to Sri Lanka for the tsunami – the two things that struck me was how disjointed everything was – and how political everything was.
I truly expected expect a couple of pone calls would do – it was all over the news after all – my first Day of calls proved me wrong but I got some real interesting quotes.
Eventually a kind carrier was found and the helo was on it’s way – I’m told when it got there it could hardly do anything due to “lack of permits”.
That’s as close as I’ve got to helo ops – although have been involved in some fixed wing interesting ones – so will say there is Major room for improvement but don’t know enough to suggest how to implement the improvements.
Swinging Spanner – you don’t seem to have a PM link on your page – PM me about posting pics please.
I truly expected expect a couple of pone calls would do – it was all over the news after all – my first Day of calls proved me wrong but I got some real interesting quotes.
Eventually a kind carrier was found and the helo was on it’s way – I’m told when it got there it could hardly do anything due to “lack of permits”.
That’s as close as I’ve got to helo ops – although have been involved in some fixed wing interesting ones – so will say there is Major room for improvement but don’t know enough to suggest how to implement the improvements.
Swinging Spanner – you don’t seem to have a PM link on your page – PM me about posting pics please.
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Count me in!
Well guys, I'm up for it... let me know where to be and when, I'll ferry it, hitch it, do whatever it takes to get it there and then let's show just what we really can do.
I agree, the funding will be an issue that needs someone 'larger than life' at the head but we could do SO much great work.
I agree, the funding will be an issue that needs someone 'larger than life' at the head but we could do SO much great work.
Yes Aser, there are four of them there. All owned by Aga Khan foundation. Two are permanently based in Islamabad, the other two came down from Dushanbe, in Tajikistan, to lend a hand.
Funding: the bane.
How about an organisational head that can afford the initial hit as a bridging fund? Someone like Bill gates, etc etc etc, or a large company such as GE, though there is an issue with percieved American organisations in many parts of the world.
They can fund the gap and get the op up and running until other funding kicks in. They can justify the expenditure on the huge comapny logo painted on the side of the aircraft and the exposure, and it would get the job cracking along without the crippling effect of bureaucratic funding timelines.
How about an organisational head that can afford the initial hit as a bridging fund? Someone like Bill gates, etc etc etc, or a large company such as GE, though there is an issue with percieved American organisations in many parts of the world.
They can fund the gap and get the op up and running until other funding kicks in. They can justify the expenditure on the huge comapny logo painted on the side of the aircraft and the exposure, and it would get the job cracking along without the crippling effect of bureaucratic funding timelines.
