Aussie fire contracts
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For the 1 million Dollars to get the sky crane here and back before a rotor blade is turned also adds to the cost. The skycrane is still the local aussie hero.
It is upsetting for the local operators when overseas 212's arrive for the summer, why does casa allow the use of local aoc's to overseas companys. They frown at locals using other aoc's, but a blind eye to overseas is acceptable.
Yes the price is good also from overseas company's, as they are already operating max hours in their summer, so the company comes to oz for a working holiday
TH
It is upsetting for the local operators when overseas 212's arrive for the summer, why does casa allow the use of local aoc's to overseas companys. They frown at locals using other aoc's, but a blind eye to overseas is acceptable.
Yes the price is good also from overseas company's, as they are already operating max hours in their summer, so the company comes to oz for a working holiday
TH
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Regardless of the personal attacks, Rosemary is on the right track, just hasn't thought it through, IMHO.
Why on earth have we a Free Trade Agreement with the USA, when they won't let our aircraft operate there, yet we let them come over here? Local operators are at the rag end of any handouts from the Feds, and the treatment of John McD is shocking, considering the investment that he has made.
ISTR that his 214B's carry about 2700lt, not "heavy" against the Aircrane, but then how often do they lift the advertised 9000lt? Most seasons they average 7000lt a drop (even less with "Rocky"), so a couple of 214B's aren't far behind, and as already stated they're about 30% cheaper per litre on the flames!!
Getting to the article, why weren't McD's given a guernsey instead of $US5-600k squandered on airfreight charges to bring in 2 x Aircranes? Why don't our Fire Authorities (Fed and State) support local industry, and insist on our (supposed) allies and co signatories to the FTA to allow our machines over to the USA, thus giving half a chance of a return on investment to allow a home grown industry?
Rant over
Why on earth have we a Free Trade Agreement with the USA, when they won't let our aircraft operate there, yet we let them come over here? Local operators are at the rag end of any handouts from the Feds, and the treatment of John McD is shocking, considering the investment that he has made.
ISTR that his 214B's carry about 2700lt, not "heavy" against the Aircrane, but then how often do they lift the advertised 9000lt? Most seasons they average 7000lt a drop (even less with "Rocky"), so a couple of 214B's aren't far behind, and as already stated they're about 30% cheaper per litre on the flames!!
Getting to the article, why weren't McD's given a guernsey instead of $US5-600k squandered on airfreight charges to bring in 2 x Aircranes? Why don't our Fire Authorities (Fed and State) support local industry, and insist on our (supposed) allies and co signatories to the FTA to allow our machines over to the USA, thus giving half a chance of a return on investment to allow a home grown industry?
Rant over
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I gather then that someone in a position of power is playing a deadly game of politics and using Australian Operators as pawns.
Anyone have any idea as to who this may be and why? If the numbers do not add up both financially and operationally with imported aircraft, yet it is still happening, then whoever has a beef against the local industry, or maybe just a local operator, really needs to explain their decision for better or for worse.
DF
Anyone have any idea as to who this may be and why? If the numbers do not add up both financially and operationally with imported aircraft, yet it is still happening, then whoever has a beef against the local industry, or maybe just a local operator, really needs to explain their decision for better or for worse.
DF
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It may be that the Skycrane costs more per litre to deliver water to the fire but is there a factor that the larger the volume dumped in one hit the greater the efficiency?
I'm not in the game myself, but I have heard that with greater volumne the extinguishing factor increases dramatically. Can anybody confirm or deny this? Is this is just another marketing ploy that removes the smaller machines from the resource pool so that it becomes the domain of the big players?
If any of you can provide the formula that they use to derive this, if it is true, I'd be interested to hear it.
I'm not in the game myself, but I have heard that with greater volumne the extinguishing factor increases dramatically. Can anybody confirm or deny this? Is this is just another marketing ploy that removes the smaller machines from the resource pool so that it becomes the domain of the big players?
If any of you can provide the formula that they use to derive this, if it is true, I'd be interested to hear it.
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I would have thought that as evaporation is a function of temp/humidity and time that the impotant thing is to get the required amount of water in a given time. To acheive this one could use one large bucket or a chain of smaller buckets. the advantage of the smaller buckets being that any one does not significantly reduce the effort if it is unavailable, and there is a contiuous stream of water arriving
.When say attacking a flame front, an aproach can be set up with a chain of aircraft arriving sequentially allowing a continuous
pattern of overlapping drops to be made on the front.
One aircraft, of any capacity cannot make such an effort.
.When say attacking a flame front, an aproach can be set up with a chain of aircraft arriving sequentially allowing a continuous
pattern of overlapping drops to be made on the front.
One aircraft, of any capacity cannot make such an effort.
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In the State Aircraft Unit (Victoria) 2004-2005 annual report it states
"The operation of Helitack 147 (Bell 214B) was limited by the ability of the aircraft to maintain serviceability due to mechanical failure"
"Helitack 141 (S-64F) demonstrated the ability to quickly deliver large volumes of fire suppressant in potentially threatening situations under extreme fire danger conditions. Using direct attack on high intensity fire the Air-crane was credited with several significant saves where high value assets were protected in threating situations"
"The operation of Helitack 147 (Bell 214B) was limited by the ability of the aircraft to maintain serviceability due to mechanical failure"
"Helitack 141 (S-64F) demonstrated the ability to quickly deliver large volumes of fire suppressant in potentially threatening situations under extreme fire danger conditions. Using direct attack on high intensity fire the Air-crane was credited with several significant saves where high value assets were protected in threating situations"
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Fair Play
Lets remember one thing ladies and gentlemen. This was an open tender for any AUSTRALIAN company to bid. All of the contracts were awarded to Australian companies. Now if that compny does not have the funds and/or the resoureces to support such aircraft then it is only logical that they go abroard. The Australian market cannot sustain these aircraft outside of the fire season. Be it Skycrane, S61 or Bell 212 there just isnt the work for them. This argument seems to surface every year and we always hear about the poor operators who cant get a start because of these foreign devils. Well you have to be in it to win it. So bid the contract and then buy the aircraft. Not going to happen. At least some of these companies are looking to use local pilots/engineers to help crew the machines. I am sure these guys would not have such exposure if the aircraft were not here. Just my 2 cents.
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[quote] When say attacking a flame front, an aproach can be set up with a chain of aircraft arriving sequentially allowing a continuous
pattern of overlapping drops to be made on the front.
Geday, Steve Bracks here, i am pleased to announce our new fleet of Skycranes to the Victorian drought affected state. Stuff helping the farmers, by spending only a little bit extra, i can give the victorian state complete coverage with skycranes. The fires wont stand a chance if we hit them continuosly in formation. It will be a fabulous show.
Could you imagine the DSE running around trying to refuel all these skycranes at the same time.
Unfortunately the government is winning voting points by bringing in the extra skycranes. It is a shame to see the 214's doing nothing when the helicopters that are on contract around oz are of smaller capacity.
Come on Rosemary, we thank you for sticking your head up, but it is a mighty big task to bite off in order to support our home grown employment opportunities. Good Luck!
I hear taht in the USA, ems operators are fitiing belly tanks to their new AW139,s when the fires are in their local shires. F Australia is so far behind the times
pattern of overlapping drops to be made on the front.
Geday, Steve Bracks here,
i am pleased to announce our new fleet of Skycranes to the Victorian drought affected state. Stuff helping the farmers, by spending only a little bit extra, i can give the victorian state complete coverage with skycranes. The fires wont stand a chance if we hit them continuosly in formation. It will be a fabulous show. Could you imagine the DSE running around trying to refuel all these skycranes at the same time.
Unfortunately the government is winning voting points by bringing in the extra skycranes. It is a shame to see the 214's doing nothing when the helicopters that are on contract around oz are of smaller capacity.
Come on Rosemary, we thank you for sticking your head up, but it is a mighty big task to bite off in order to support our home grown employment opportunities. Good Luck!
I hear taht in the USA, ems operators are fitiing belly tanks to their new AW139,s when the fires are in their local shires. F
Australia is so far behind the times
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In the State Aircraft Unit (Victoria) Annual Report 2004-2005 it states
"The operation of Helitack 147 (Bell 214B) was limited by the ability of the aircraft to maintain serviceability due to mechanical failure"
"Helitack 141 (S-64F) demonstrated the ability to quickly deliver large volumes of fire suppressant in potentially threatening situations under extreme fire danger conditions. Using direct attack on high intensity fires the Air-crane was credited with several significant saves where high value assets were protected in threatening situations"
"The operation of Helitack 147 (Bell 214B) was limited by the ability of the aircraft to maintain serviceability due to mechanical failure"
"Helitack 141 (S-64F) demonstrated the ability to quickly deliver large volumes of fire suppressant in potentially threatening situations under extreme fire danger conditions. Using direct attack on high intensity fires the Air-crane was credited with several significant saves where high value assets were protected in threatening situations"
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Lets remember one thing ladies and gentlemen. This was an open tender for any AUSTRALIAN company to bid. All of the contracts were awarded to Australian companies. Now if that compny does not have the funds and/or the resoureces to support such aircraft then it is only logical that they go abroard. The Australian market cannot sustain these aircraft outside of the fire season. Be it Skycrane, S61 or Bell 212 there just isnt the work for them. This argument seems to surface every year and we always hear about the poor operators who cant get a start because of these foreign devils. Well you have to be in it to win it. So bid the contract and then buy the aircraft. Not going to happen. At least some of these companies are looking to use local pilots/engineers to help crew the machines. I am sure these guys would not have such exposure if the aircraft were not here. Just my 2 cents.
Read my previous post: if local (Australian) operators cannot work their machines overseas outside the local fire season, what point is there in making an investment in mediums/heavies? Despite the FTA, the USA/FAA/Forestry will not allow Australian operators to take machines into the USA. But we roll over and let them come here, even if it is under the guise of a local operator who has hooked up with a North American operator to give them some of our money to take home to subsidise their operation
And to overlook the main Oz operator who has made such an investment (Johnnie Mac) is just criminal, IMHO
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Why the states?
Well I can honestly say that I am not too sure about the FAA regs on Australian aircraft fighting fire in the states, but I do know there are a lot of other countries out there that have fires in the Australian winter. Lets not forget that McDermott had an aircraft fighting fire in Canada 2 years ago. Just about all of the EU will allow foreign aircraft in to fight fire. I know of at least 4 countries ( France, Spain, Portugal, Greece) that contract mediums and heavies each year from abroad. So why doesnt an Australian company go after these contracts. They are there for everyone. I think that while these companies are based in North America, they are truly a global operation. And whats to stop us from doing that????
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John Mac has been sending his a/c overseas for years now. Firefighting in spain portugal and more recently lifting work in PNG.
Hevi lift PNG have been coming to Australia since 1993 to fight fires.
As mentioned previously these contracts were awarded thru a public tender.
There is no way that an operator would stay in business if they were to go and buy or lease 3 212's for the fire season. Having these types of machines sitting around for six to nine months doing nothing is very expensive. Hevi lift tried it with 1 212 in Sydney with dissapointing results.....even if the peanut they had managing the show was not there, it would hav been an unsustainable operation.
Skycranes are expensive, but they are an awsome firefighting tool in the right operators hands. I do believe the money would be better spent on a fleet of mediums giving more coverage, but it would only take one house to be burnt down in sydneys northern suburbs, and the people who sent elvis home will have committed political suicide.
Hevi lift PNG have been coming to Australia since 1993 to fight fires.
As mentioned previously these contracts were awarded thru a public tender.
There is no way that an operator would stay in business if they were to go and buy or lease 3 212's for the fire season. Having these types of machines sitting around for six to nine months doing nothing is very expensive. Hevi lift tried it with 1 212 in Sydney with dissapointing results.....even if the peanut they had managing the show was not there, it would hav been an unsustainable operation.
Skycranes are expensive, but they are an awsome firefighting tool in the right operators hands. I do believe the money would be better spent on a fleet of mediums giving more coverage, but it would only take one house to be burnt down in sydneys northern suburbs, and the people who sent elvis home will have committed political suicide.
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Hello all, new here. A very enlightening thread for sure.
"Read my previous post: if local (Australian) operators cannot work their machines overseas outside the local fire season, what point is there in making an investment in mediums/heavies? Despite the FTA, the USA/FAA/Forestry will not allow Australian operators to take machines into the USA. But we roll over and let them come here, even if it is under the guise of a local operator who has hooked up with a North American operator to give them some of our money to take home to subsidise their operation"
Squeaks, what makes you so sure that foreign operators can't work here in the 'States? I have come across many, many Canadian and Mexican registered aircraft on fires over here. Everything from 206's to Cranes. I'm quite sure that you are badly mistaken on this point. The foreign operators are working through an AOC holder here in the US, just as the foregin registered aircraft in OZ are working through local AOC's.
I think it just boils down to money. It's bloody expensive to move aircraft around the world, and if you're trying to find work for a small, or medium machine overseas, it's more likely you could lease a local one for a lot less than the transportation costs of getting your own over there (where ever that might be). The Cranes, on the other hand, are quite unique, and are in demand all over the world. If there were an Australian operator with a couple of them on their books, there is no doubt that they would be gainfully employed year around.
Someone else mentioned that Erickson wasn't interested in selling a couple of their machines to Australian operators or the Gov't. To that I say, take a look at what they did with the Italian Corpo Forestale, and the Korean Forestry Service. Four F models to Italy, and 2 (so far) to Korea.
Cheers!
"Read my previous post: if local (Australian) operators cannot work their machines overseas outside the local fire season, what point is there in making an investment in mediums/heavies? Despite the FTA, the USA/FAA/Forestry will not allow Australian operators to take machines into the USA. But we roll over and let them come here, even if it is under the guise of a local operator who has hooked up with a North American operator to give them some of our money to take home to subsidise their operation"
Squeaks, what makes you so sure that foreign operators can't work here in the 'States? I have come across many, many Canadian and Mexican registered aircraft on fires over here. Everything from 206's to Cranes. I'm quite sure that you are badly mistaken on this point. The foreign operators are working through an AOC holder here in the US, just as the foregin registered aircraft in OZ are working through local AOC's.
I think it just boils down to money. It's bloody expensive to move aircraft around the world, and if you're trying to find work for a small, or medium machine overseas, it's more likely you could lease a local one for a lot less than the transportation costs of getting your own over there (where ever that might be). The Cranes, on the other hand, are quite unique, and are in demand all over the world. If there were an Australian operator with a couple of them on their books, there is no doubt that they would be gainfully employed year around.
Someone else mentioned that Erickson wasn't interested in selling a couple of their machines to Australian operators or the Gov't. To that I say, take a look at what they did with the Italian Corpo Forestale, and the Korean Forestry Service. Four F models to Italy, and 2 (so far) to Korea.
Cheers!
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Guys, sorry this question is a lot off track but I wondered if anyone involved in this chat knows of employers looking for a driver for the season.
I've got 5000hrs, multi time, done fires in the US, PNG time, longline exp VFR and IFR and plenty of worthy referee's. Ive been touring out of OZ and might be looking to stay out of 3rd world countries for a while. I just don't know who to e-mail regarding the fire season back home.
I really appreciate any help here.
I've got 5000hrs, multi time, done fires in the US, PNG time, longline exp VFR and IFR and plenty of worthy referee's. Ive been touring out of OZ and might be looking to stay out of 3rd world countries for a while. I just don't know who to e-mail regarding the fire season back home.
I really appreciate any help here.
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there used often be a couple of Mil's parked in Cairns during off peak PNG times for the same reason. - um fifteen years ago?????-
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This is pretty funny thread. Obviously there are a few people who havent fought a lot of fire. A 214 can not even come close to keeping up with or being as productive as a crane ... It certianly has its palce, but the two can not be fairly compared.
Erikson will sell anyone a crane, the questions is do you have the money.
Now I may be mistaken, but MacDermots 214B was operating in Canada and the US ( didnt it have a N # on it for a while!). I was also under the impression that he had beed sending his gear around the world
Many of the Heavy's and Mediums from North America, are on CWN contracts. I know several operators that have lost their shirt sending a/c to OZ in the hopes of making some coin. Just remember Reward is often found from taking a risk. Sending A/C to the other side of the world hoping to be pciked up on fire is a risk.
I have heard that besides the crane's, OZ has activated the CWN contrats and requested metal from this side of the pond. I believe there is a 61 and a Kmax already there. Both on Call When Needed contracts.
Isnt this a good deal for the people of OZ. The operator spends his money getting the a/c, crew and support gear over and sits on his dime until its needed ( when all the OZ opertors are already working)?
Sounds to me like there are some people who arent on fire contracts and a little envious.
RB
Erikson will sell anyone a crane, the questions is do you have the money.
Now I may be mistaken, but MacDermots 214B was operating in Canada and the US ( didnt it have a N # on it for a while!). I was also under the impression that he had beed sending his gear around the world
Many of the Heavy's and Mediums from North America, are on CWN contracts. I know several operators that have lost their shirt sending a/c to OZ in the hopes of making some coin. Just remember Reward is often found from taking a risk. Sending A/C to the other side of the world hoping to be pciked up on fire is a risk.
I have heard that besides the crane's, OZ has activated the CWN contrats and requested metal from this side of the pond. I believe there is a 61 and a Kmax already there. Both on Call When Needed contracts.
Isnt this a good deal for the people of OZ. The operator spends his money getting the a/c, crew and support gear over and sits on his dime until its needed ( when all the OZ opertors are already working)?
Sounds to me like there are some people who arent on fire contracts and a little envious.
RB
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I don't believe the discussion is about whether a 214 or any other chopper can out lift a sky crane, the bottom line is how much water can we move for our dollar . And if that means several smaller helicopters with the bonus of more flexability then why send our money overseas.
Paul Collins - Burn; The epic story of Bushfire in Australia.
There was an interesting story on Landline the other day about the history of bushfires in OZ. Those interested in some of the politics behind it all might want to check it out. As for the Skycranes, I think they are a great machine but as Jon S G said, you need to consider water delivered vs cost and the 214 or any medium for that matter is always going to come up trumps. In saying that, Australia is under equipped at times and we simply need to get outside help in to keep up but there is no way we should have foreign machines in the air when we have Australian machines on the gound. As for Johnny Mac, a little birdie told me that his tendering process has left a little to be desired in the last few years. It would be a shame to have such great and capable machinery and crews ready to go yet not get the contract simply due something so simple like that.
For those interested, here is the link to the landline story from last Sunday. http://www.abc.net.au/landline/conte...6/s1774389.htm
For those interested, here is the link to the landline story from last Sunday. http://www.abc.net.au/landline/conte...6/s1774389.htm