Aussie fire contracts
Coulson's S61 arrived at Essendon Airport (Melbourne) this morning: in the pouring rain, of course 
Erickson's machine arrived last weekend, and is parked outside Helicorp's hangar.
Erickson's machine arrived last weekend, and is parked outside Helicorp's hangar.
Okay, here's a hypothetical question. Say the fire season in Australia is non-existant this year and all contracted machines sit on the ground, which is not all that unlikely. How much money would leave the country? Are there Canadian pilots here on the ground at the moment getting a standby rate and if so, will they continue to sit around regardless? Just curious to see where my tax dollars are headed. Cheers.
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Another Skycrane for the Australian Fire season
This was posted on the ABC News website today.
Quote ..
The Federal Government has announced an extra $2.5 million to help bring a third Elvis-type helicopter to Australia to help fight bushfires this summer.
The National Aerial Fire Fighting Centre already receives money from federal, state and territory governments to bring two other similar aircraft from the United States each summer.
The Minister for Local Government, Jim Lloyd, says the federal contribution is just over $5 million.
He says the third helicopter could be based in Canberra.
"We currently have two of those Erickson sky cranes on the way to Australia, one is going to be flown over from the US, the other one is on a ship," Mr Lloyd said.
"Those two are normally based in Melbourne and one in Sydney. This additional funding will allow the third one to be based possibly in Canberra, but that's a matter for the Aerial Fire Fighting Centre."
Quote ..
The Federal Government has announced an extra $2.5 million to help bring a third Elvis-type helicopter to Australia to help fight bushfires this summer.
The National Aerial Fire Fighting Centre already receives money from federal, state and territory governments to bring two other similar aircraft from the United States each summer.
The Minister for Local Government, Jim Lloyd, says the federal contribution is just over $5 million.
He says the third helicopter could be based in Canberra.
"We currently have two of those Erickson sky cranes on the way to Australia, one is going to be flown over from the US, the other one is on a ship," Mr Lloyd said.
"Those two are normally based in Melbourne and one in Sydney. This additional funding will allow the third one to be based possibly in Canberra, but that's a matter for the Aerial Fire Fighting Centre."
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?? Hmmm
I am not that great on economics, or government spending, but why doesn't the australian govenrment actually purchase one or two skycrane helicopters or tender a private contract instead of importing, leasing, then sending them back on a ship or even by air freight (which they have done in the past) every fire season at a massive cost ..... .
Any ideas on why they do this ???
Any ideas on why they do this ???
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A question of airframes...
It is a matter of availability of airframes...... there are not many aircranes around and Ericson has all the rites to the drawings from Sikorsky.
You can't buy what isn't available. it is in Ericson's best interest ($$$) to move them between fire seasons at the customers expense rather than sell them to the Austrailian Government.
You can't buy what isn't available. it is in Ericson's best interest ($$$) to move them between fire seasons at the customers expense rather than sell them to the Austrailian Government.
Maybe it is the bit about economics?
What I find really intresting is the minister who just spent over $5 million and cannot even name the aircraft properly. makes you wonder......
and did he get the company right this time? Did Erikson get the show, or Heavy Lift?
What I find really intresting is the minister who just spent over $5 million and cannot even name the aircraft properly. makes you wonder......
and did he get the company right this time? Did Erikson get the show, or Heavy Lift?
Which bit didn't you like, HF? The EriCkson bit, or the Air/Sky crane bit?
Sydney Helicopters is bringing out a Sikorsky Sky Crane, based at Parramatta, to help out the Erickson Air Cranes.
Sydney Helicopters is bringing out a Sikorsky Sky Crane, based at Parramatta, to help out the Erickson Air Cranes.
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I am not that great on economics, or government spending, but why doesn't the australian govenrment actually purchase one or two skycrane helicopters or tender a private contract instead of importing, leasing, then sending them back on a ship or even by air freight (which they have done in the past) every fire season at a massive cost ..... .
What a shame some of that couldn't be spent on the local operators, who aren't allowed to reciprocate and operate in the USA during their fire season.
Free Trade Agreement, anyone
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fuel on the fire with that statement to any primary producer, trying to compete with the good-ol-USA or any EU country where they get paid to plough it all back in.
and now there's a new minister to head it up -****** warren, God help us.
At least the aviation portfolio should improve for the first time in a long while with minister Vaile.
The excess loot of course comes from the federal GST (VAT) hand-out which in the last few months has transformed nearly every state govt from paupers to glad handing money bags.
Most of that GST loot is not tied to anything, so look forward to more fat cats, (political appointees) who will help the re-election pursuits of the useless labor party in each state, good fire funding but no preventitive burning ( too risky politically) all at the expense of real infrastructure spending.
yardy yah, and further down the bloody gurgler we go!!
and now there's a new minister to head it up -****** warren, God help us.
At least the aviation portfolio should improve for the first time in a long while with minister Vaile.
The excess loot of course comes from the federal GST (VAT) hand-out which in the last few months has transformed nearly every state govt from paupers to glad handing money bags.
Most of that GST loot is not tied to anything, so look forward to more fat cats, (political appointees) who will help the re-election pursuits of the useless labor party in each state, good fire funding but no preventitive burning ( too risky politically) all at the expense of real infrastructure spending.
yardy yah, and further down the bloody gurgler we go!!
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It is a matter of availability of airframes...... there are not many aircranes around and Ericson has all the rites to the drawings from Sikorsky.
You can't buy what isn't available. it is in Ericson's best interest ($$$) to move them between fire seasons at the customers expense rather than sell them to the Austrailian Government.
You can't buy what isn't available. it is in Ericson's best interest ($$$) to move them between fire seasons at the customers expense rather than sell them to the Austrailian Government.
Australian Fire Fighting Contracts - HAA response
An interesting news item in The Australian newspaper, Friday 27 October 2006. What do you think about this debate? What is the HAA's role in this issue?
Article reads:
Imports get a bucketing
By Steve Creedy
Emergencies
As the nation braces for a horror bushfire season, fire services have been accused of importing helicopters while local operators send their machines offshore to find enough work to survive.
The Helicopter Association of Australasia is angry that $800,000 is being spent to import just one helicopter for the NSW Fire Service, and says the situation is similar in other states.
It claims that while this is happening, Australian helicopter operators are sending their expertise offshore to find work to survive.
And it says there needs to be more consultation between the industry and firefighting services over a range of issues.
“Our helicopter industry is geared to fight fires,'' said HAA president Rosemarie McRae. “There are Australian operators with every state and territory with helicopters capable of fighting the fires. So why are we bringing in foreign aircraft and leaving ours sitting on the ground?”
'
Ms McRae said it was critical that aerial firefighters were familiar with Australian rules and regulations. She said the nation had a highly trained and capable industry able to provide big fire-attack helicopters with similar capabilities to the Elvis air-cranes.
The NSW Rural Fire Service did not consult with the industry and a consultative committee needed to be set up to remedy the problem. “What about the economic ramifications to the Australian industry, including pilots, engineers, ground and air crew?”' she said.
NSW Rural Fire Service spokesman Cameron Wade said federal authorities, and not the RFS, handled contracts for overseas machines. “It's nothing to do with us” Mr Wade said. “We're actually given the aircraft we're told we're to have.”
National Aerial Firefighting Centre manager Richard Alder denied claims there were Australian machines that could lift as much water as an air-crane. The NAFC is responsible for letting contracts for bigger helicopters and, where necessary, importing them.
Mr Alder said Australian companies were involved in importing helicopters and the HAA had made no attempt to contact his organisation. He said the NAFC put its contracts out for public tender and picked the solution that offered the best value for money.
End:
Article reads:
Imports get a bucketing
By Steve Creedy
Emergencies
As the nation braces for a horror bushfire season, fire services have been accused of importing helicopters while local operators send their machines offshore to find enough work to survive.
The Helicopter Association of Australasia is angry that $800,000 is being spent to import just one helicopter for the NSW Fire Service, and says the situation is similar in other states.
It claims that while this is happening, Australian helicopter operators are sending their expertise offshore to find work to survive.
And it says there needs to be more consultation between the industry and firefighting services over a range of issues.
“Our helicopter industry is geared to fight fires,'' said HAA president Rosemarie McRae. “There are Australian operators with every state and territory with helicopters capable of fighting the fires. So why are we bringing in foreign aircraft and leaving ours sitting on the ground?”
'
Ms McRae said it was critical that aerial firefighters were familiar with Australian rules and regulations. She said the nation had a highly trained and capable industry able to provide big fire-attack helicopters with similar capabilities to the Elvis air-cranes.
The NSW Rural Fire Service did not consult with the industry and a consultative committee needed to be set up to remedy the problem. “What about the economic ramifications to the Australian industry, including pilots, engineers, ground and air crew?”' she said.
NSW Rural Fire Service spokesman Cameron Wade said federal authorities, and not the RFS, handled contracts for overseas machines. “It's nothing to do with us” Mr Wade said. “We're actually given the aircraft we're told we're to have.”
National Aerial Firefighting Centre manager Richard Alder denied claims there were Australian machines that could lift as much water as an air-crane. The NAFC is responsible for letting contracts for bigger helicopters and, where necessary, importing them.
Mr Alder said Australian companies were involved in importing helicopters and the HAA had made no attempt to contact his organisation. He said the NAFC put its contracts out for public tender and picked the solution that offered the best value for money.
End:
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If the President of the HAA thinks that there are helicopters in this country that are capable of doing what the aircranes can do, or even close to doing what they can do then she does not deserve to be in that position.
We do not have those kind of aircraft because it is impossible to support them on a year round basis. There is little application for those helicopters in this country except during the fire season.
I gather she is acting as a voice on behalf of other operators that do not like seeing international competition and that is understandable but what is the solution? Does anyone really think that an Australian operator is going to invest in a heavy lift helicopter and have it sit around for 6 months gathering dust in the hope that the next fire season will be a big one????
Having said that, the government has done so little to encourage local operators to invest in big aircraft which is probably the real injustice here because our pilots are bloody good at fighting fires and they happen just about every year. But will someone tell our Rosemarie to get her head out of the sand and take a proper look at the local industry and to stop saying things like "Our helicopter industry is geared to fight fires", because it does little for her credibility in that position. We may be good at it with what we have, but we don't have much.
DF
We do not have those kind of aircraft because it is impossible to support them on a year round basis. There is little application for those helicopters in this country except during the fire season.
I gather she is acting as a voice on behalf of other operators that do not like seeing international competition and that is understandable but what is the solution? Does anyone really think that an Australian operator is going to invest in a heavy lift helicopter and have it sit around for 6 months gathering dust in the hope that the next fire season will be a big one????
Having said that, the government has done so little to encourage local operators to invest in big aircraft which is probably the real injustice here because our pilots are bloody good at fighting fires and they happen just about every year. But will someone tell our Rosemarie to get her head out of the sand and take a proper look at the local industry and to stop saying things like "Our helicopter industry is geared to fight fires", because it does little for her credibility in that position. We may be good at it with what we have, but we don't have much.
DF
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there are three 214b's just up the road from me. i think they are heavy.
they are set up with the most modern fire fighting equipment, are far more efficient than the cranes and are available year round at much less cost to the taxpayer.
the cranes are much overrated but they make good news stories to make the public feel good.
they are set up with the most modern fire fighting equipment, are far more efficient than the cranes and are available year round at much less cost to the taxpayer.
the cranes are much overrated but they make good news stories to make the public feel good.
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It's a good point point you make about the cranes being great news stories and I would bet that there is a lot more to that than we may ever know but it is a big country and 3 214's do not make a big impression in the overall scheme of things.
And they are not really heavies either mate, they are just mediums and a good example of the extent of our "heavy" capabilities.
DF
And they are not really heavies either mate, they are just mediums and a good example of the extent of our "heavy" capabilities.
DF
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because it does little for her credibility in that position
The only reason she is getting on her soapbox is to justify that $80k a year salary that she pays herself. Not to mention the office on the Gold Coast that they cant afford. They get rid of anyone who starts to ask questions - ask Lynton.
With regards to fire fighting helos, apart from the 214s that McDermotts have and the other Hueys around I dont think Australia has the capability to compete with anything in the Crane league.
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A few questions for those in the field.
What is the actual lifting capacity of the skycrane on an ISA + 20 day
How many crew are required to keep the ac airborne
what are the costs to Aus / hr flown on fires
is this an efficient use of the available $
Are the skycranes op's compatible with other Australian ac in the same airspace.
What is the actual lifting capacity of the skycrane on an ISA + 20 day
How many crew are required to keep the ac airborne
what are the costs to Aus / hr flown on fires
is this an efficient use of the available $
Are the skycranes op's compatible with other Australian ac in the same airspace.
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a flies dick of being heavy
Medium or heavy, the 214b is still a far more efficient and economical firefighter than the skycrane.
At 92 cents per litre of water delivered over the fire the skycrane is 30 percent dearer than the 214.
At 92 cents per litre of water delivered over the fire the skycrane is 30 percent dearer than the 214.
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Your right Neddy old boy.
The HAA purge will be complete when the constitution is rewritten so Captain Rosemary can be dictator for life. She is the first president to take money.
The $80.000 per year for rosie and whoever else is being paid should empty the coffers of the HAA in three years. Where to then?????
The HAA purge will be complete when the constitution is rewritten so Captain Rosemary can be dictator for life. She is the first president to take money.
The $80.000 per year for rosie and whoever else is being paid should empty the coffers of the HAA in three years. Where to then?????