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Robinson R44

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Robinson R44

Old 29th Oct 2008, 19:59
  #1081 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 2
landing R44

taking lessons in R44 and find it difficult to land any one with a tip out there ?
aspes is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2008, 20:06
  #1082 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 205
Face into wind, left skid to touch first then be firm but gentle onto the ground.

If you find yourself mucking around with one skid touching, lift...

I was always firm with my landings until I got the knack of them...practice makes perfect.

Judging by the winds in Ireland today I am not suprised you are having fun landing it!
rotorspin is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2008, 22:04
  #1083 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,015
taking lessons in R44 and find it difficult to land any one with a tip out there
You flying uniques 44 out of enniskillen? Your lucky to get any flying done at all with that weather!
206Fan is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2008, 03:17
  #1084 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 64
Posts: 171
Too many people try to get the perfect landing - they end up at 2 inches wallowing around hoping to time lowering the collective with the perfect attitude of the aircraft. Lots of problems with that approach.

I just tell students to set up a very slow sink rate and to adjust collective to maintain that sink rate through ground effect, i.e. don't let the descent stop. When the first skid touches, continue lowering the collective at the same rate you've been lowering it so that you get some weight on the skids. When the first skid touches and the helicopter rolls towards the other skid, give a little opposite cyclic just like on a slope landing so that you don't start sliding sideways.

Don't allow the helicopter to drift sideways during the landing or you'll be asking for dynamic rollover (especially on turf), but don't stop the descent either - just keep working the cyclic during the descent so that you maintain your position over the ground. You can let it move forward a little if you want, but ultimately you should be landing with no motion at all.

Keep loose and relaxed - nobody does good landings when they are tense and tight.
Paul Cantrell is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2008, 12:35
  #1085 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: where I'm told
Posts: 38
Landing on short grass is much easier than a hard surface, giving some absorbtion to the downwash and helping keep a stable descent in the hover. Make sure the grass is firm in this weather.

But then your instructor would be telling you all this anyway.
ivakontrol is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2008, 09:29
  #1086 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: tipton
Posts: 54
Quick question re climbing

I've just read some notes on an early exercise re learning to fly the R44. The school inquestion state that when going from S and L to a climb the student should use the "APT" method of Attitude - slow to climb speed of 70kts, Power - pull on climb collective, Trim - into the climb. But after 20 years of professional f/w flying this smacks as a total waste of energy - slowing to 70kts BEFORE climbing. Why not pull on the collective and adjust the cyclic earlier so that the speed loss from cruise to climb is used in a speed-to-height trade off?

Am I missing something?

whyisitsohard is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2008, 09:55
  #1087 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 567
May be a Robbo thing but does seem strange, Surely converting speed for height and then topping up the Power is easier and more efficient. APT was more for IF.
timex is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2008, 12:03
  #1088 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 54
Posts: 4,898
you allow the aircraft to climb as the speed decays, not slow down then climb. In a turbine aircraft you would actually back off on collective as the speed reduces, if you started at MCP for the cruise!
212man is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2008, 20:21
  #1089 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: tipton
Posts: 54
212man, thats exactly what I figured, but the course notes seemed to require deceleration first, then climb. maybe I misread them.

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Old 25th Nov 2008, 17:24
  #1090 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 64
Posts: 171
Maybe the notes said to pitch to a 70 knot attitude and then bring in power? Nobody I know teaches to slow to 70 before starting the climb.

The only deceleration required would be if you wanted to use 5 minute power in the climb; you would need to slow below 100 knots (barber pole) before you increased power past MCP.
Paul Cantrell is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 12:50
  #1091 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 559
Student Pilot on a R44 Astro. Im gonna be doing some cross country this week and as cold as it is, its colder in the air. What are the effects on the engine or the fuel burn for leaving the carb heat on for extended periods of time. Does it reduce power a lot in the event of needing more lift in a hurry? Could you pull carb heat a third of the way?

This is not to say that I wouldnt be doing my regular checks anyway.
airbourne is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 16:25
  #1092 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 91
It;s a good question, your instructor should cover all of this. You can also go to the UK CAA Safety Sense leaflet on icing in piston engines. There's another one on winter flying.

Safety Sense Leaflet 14: Piston Engine Icing | Publications | CAA

You can assume 10% less power, but a 44 with just you in it isn't going to be an issue. Also, you're going to be 10% down on cold air performance, which is pretty dense, and better than 80 degree air + carb heat.

As you are reducing the power, you're going to burn more fuel, you could knock off 10%, but again, you instructor should give you guidelines.

You can pull carb heat as much as you need to stay out of the yellow zone. However if the instructors approve, you may have it out full for the whole journey, depends on their procedures. Not great for the engine if done often.

Just remember that if you do get roughness/odd yaws etc., and your carb heat isn't full out, pull it and keep it out for at least 30 seconds. Things will get worse before they get better as ice melts and water hits the cylinders.

... or migrate to a raven II....

61 Lafite is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 18:35
  #1093 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: no fixed abode
Posts: 132

Maybe something to do with speed awareness. In the 44, you can't pull more than MCP above 100 knots. Remember that notes are aimed at the lowest denominator, you don't want to teach a green pilot to reef the yang out of a machine and then check the speed.

As Paul suggests, I would be surprised if it advocates flaring to 70 knots before climbing.

As we all know; 44 blades are only held together by paint - apparently.......
dragman is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2008, 22:23
  #1094 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: scotland
Posts: 209
You will use a bit more fuel with carb heat on but remember on a cold clear frosty day there is less chance of carb ice than on a warmer humid day. of course you can pull it on a third but simply keep it out the yellow and you'l be fine. R22 different kettle of fish. Enjoy your flight
bvgs is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2008, 09:49
  #1095 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 192

discuss it with your instructor in detail. In the end, he is responsible and every flightschool has different policies to follow (as was already mentioned). Just one remark: There are two ways to stay out of the yellow arc...

On a cold winter day the air could be so dry that there is simply no watervapour left to build up ice. You should not see too many clouds that day then...

Enjoy your flight(s)
Ready2Fly is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2008, 16:54
  #1096 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: airport
Posts: 343
Originally Posted by ready2fly
On a cold winter day the air could be so dry that there is simply no watervapour left to build up ice. You should not see too many clouds that day then...
Are you indeed implying that on a cold clear day with no clouds you don't need to pull carb heat? I wouldn't count on that...
Runway101 is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2008, 08:03
  #1097 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 192
I am saying that you have to keep the needle outside the yellow arc. That can be either without carb heat at all (on the left side) or by applying carb heat which usually puts your needle outside the yellow arc to the right side (and i say 'usually' because theoretically you could encounter situations, where applying carb heat would get your needle right into the yellow arc - it has to be quite cold then though).

If the air is really cold, there is simply no watervapour left in it that could freeze your butterfly.

Whatever is discussed here, stick to the POH (and your flight instructor).
Ready2Fly is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2008, 17:55
  #1098 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 80
Don't forget one other thing - well known to piston rotary pilots in Yorkshire....

If you are downwind of major power stations with cooling towers that emit several hundred tonnes of water vapour per hour you should pull full carb heat, whatever the conditions of the day dictate, re. the icing temp/humidity graph. The steam is visible, but the plume of transparent water vapour at near 100% saturation for a few miles downwind is invisible....
B47 is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2008, 20:44
  #1099 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 559
Ah I know those power stations well. Actually it was quite cold on Wednesday, love flying over the snow. Kept the carb heat at about 1 third out but still was watching it every few minutes just in case.
airbourne is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2008, 16:53
  #1100 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: midlands
Age: 60
Posts: 61
New R44..a question

Hi all,

just traded my 3 year old/ 400hr machine for a new one. It has now done 30 hours.

I am experiencing an irregular 'tail wag' to port ( ie nose to the right) in the cruise. It seems to happen for a minute or so, then disappears. There is no regular cycle but averages out IRO 10 seconds or so.

My last machine didnt do it.

The pedals, and all the controls for that matter, are a lot stiffer than the older machine. Is this related to excess 'newness' friction in the yaw control system?

I am very pleased with it otherwise, although a little disappointed that the leaking door problem hasnt been resolved. If flown/ stood in the rain, water pours in through the bottom of the doors and soaks the carpets.

When you are in the cruise, the doors suck out and let in a lot of draught too - more so than previous.

Both have bubble windows, neither have the spoiler(?) mod to the front of the door frame that is supposed to either prevent or reduce the suck-out.

Is this worth doing?

All advice appreciated.

Jackboot is offline  

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