Rotorway Corner
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
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Have fun learning to fly Helis, lots of good people out there will teach you, but also a few ROGUES, so beware, then SFH once your in the scene you will find a lot of folk who will SFH up to B206 for you to fly, stick with the JetR it is so nice and us privateers can still afford to fly them, but kit builts have a sad reputation for doing silly things like breaking up when not on the ground, and it is no good giving rise to the numbers of the CAA Stats.
Have fun learn Rotory Flying, remember Heli pilots get it up faster!!
Have fun learn Rotory Flying, remember Heli pilots get it up faster!!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Florida, USA
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I agree with most of the above, especially the little calculation (of 3top) that compares the bottom line cost of the kit + the time to build it + hangar + insurance + financing + etc. We are talking something closer to 100 grand (all numbers US$).
A FAA CPL - with IFR and all - costs ca 30 or 35 grand. Then you have plenty left to buy some Jet time ** or whatever else you want to explore. Even travel and accomodation cost will be covered for a long time. Another point is the fact that Kit helicopters are in experimental category. Experimental time is not considered flight time by theCAA/JAA. Correct me if I am wrong on that, but I heared that from an UK FI who should know.
**I know a place in Atlanta where you can fly a MD 500 for $300/hr - the type rating with 10 hrs of flight time is $ 3500.
A FAA CPL - with IFR and all - costs ca 30 or 35 grand. Then you have plenty left to buy some Jet time ** or whatever else you want to explore. Even travel and accomodation cost will be covered for a long time. Another point is the fact that Kit helicopters are in experimental category. Experimental time is not considered flight time by theCAA/JAA. Correct me if I am wrong on that, but I heared that from an UK FI who should know.
**I know a place in Atlanta where you can fly a MD 500 for $300/hr - the type rating with 10 hrs of flight time is $ 3500.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: mostly in the jungle...
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another 2 cents:
a. I donīt know about the time you can log - in FAA law I believe it is possible - a helicopter is a helicopter, and if it is registered you should be able to log the time.
b. If you are in the market for an EXEC, donīt bother with the Commercial Licence (except you want the additional training and education....), as you will not be able to use it commercially - or do you have your own plantation - you might be able to use it for fumigation.........
A private licence in the US or in my corner of the world is about 10-11 grand in a R-22.
(So just for the purchase of an EXEC, you do the licence and spend some 55000,- more to fly around for fun. Anyone will give you a price if you pay 20-50 hrs up front. In our company that would probably be 195,-/hr for a R-22, that makes about 290 hrs in a R-22. I doubt you will fly all away in one vacation.........)
c. If you where in the market for a EXEC in the first place, you where already content with a piston, so why waste the money on a turbine if you can fly twice as long with a piston for the same money - and regarding Robinsons, their governor works faster than any turbine.
d. If you get a MD-500 for 300,-US/hr, ask yourself where they safe the money. Most likely it is not a MD but an old Hughes, and then the above question is even more important. Why would someone "give" turbine time away? Samaritian? In the Helicopter business? I donīt think so!! So where are they cutting corners?
MD-500 (...and old Hughes 500 more so) cost a lot of money to maintain properly. I doubt they can cover ops, insurance, fuel, etc. AND make a buck for 300,- an hour!!
Be very careful when you spend less than 500,-US$ per hour for any turbine!!
3top
a. I donīt know about the time you can log - in FAA law I believe it is possible - a helicopter is a helicopter, and if it is registered you should be able to log the time.
b. If you are in the market for an EXEC, donīt bother with the Commercial Licence (except you want the additional training and education....), as you will not be able to use it commercially - or do you have your own plantation - you might be able to use it for fumigation.........
A private licence in the US or in my corner of the world is about 10-11 grand in a R-22.
(So just for the purchase of an EXEC, you do the licence and spend some 55000,- more to fly around for fun. Anyone will give you a price if you pay 20-50 hrs up front. In our company that would probably be 195,-/hr for a R-22, that makes about 290 hrs in a R-22. I doubt you will fly all away in one vacation.........)
c. If you where in the market for a EXEC in the first place, you where already content with a piston, so why waste the money on a turbine if you can fly twice as long with a piston for the same money - and regarding Robinsons, their governor works faster than any turbine.
d. If you get a MD-500 for 300,-US/hr, ask yourself where they safe the money. Most likely it is not a MD but an old Hughes, and then the above question is even more important. Why would someone "give" turbine time away? Samaritian? In the Helicopter business? I donīt think so!! So where are they cutting corners?
MD-500 (...and old Hughes 500 more so) cost a lot of money to maintain properly. I doubt they can cover ops, insurance, fuel, etc. AND make a buck for 300,- an hour!!
Be very careful when you spend less than 500,-US$ per hour for any turbine!!
3top
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Big Sky Country
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Turbine Rotorway
The latest trend in the Rotorway helicopters is the turbine conversion, They are putting 150HP T62-32's in them.
Here is some info: http://www.kissaviation.com/
And the major Rotorway builder's site is: http://groups.msn.com/rotorwayfun/_h...pgmarket=en-us
Hans Conser
Here is some info: http://www.kissaviation.com/
And the major Rotorway builder's site is: http://groups.msn.com/rotorwayfun/_h...pgmarket=en-us
Hans Conser
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Florida, USA
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...a little bit off topic, but....
- just to clarify the last part of my last post (because there was some question as to the quality/condition of that MD 500 program:
I have personally flown that aircraft. It has a brand new Garmin 430 + intercom + interior. Maintenance seemd to be exellent. And yes - it is an A model. It's still a heck of a deal! Who needs it to go fast? It's for timebuilding!
sp
- just to clarify the last part of my last post (because there was some question as to the quality/condition of that MD 500 program:
I have personally flown that aircraft. It has a brand new Garmin 430 + intercom + interior. Maintenance seemd to be exellent. And yes - it is an A model. It's still a heck of a deal! Who needs it to go fast? It's for timebuilding!
sp
Join Date: Jul 2002
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To Sierra-Papa:
I sent you an e-mail to the Md-500 - comments apon your reply.
However, where I am, we have the same question with tunahelicopters:
The R-44 is taking over the market, however there are still Hughes-500 flying for the same price. It is pretty much impossible to make money AND maintain the ships legal for the price, where you still make decent money with a R-44.
Parts for Hughes 500īs are getting expensive.
As I thought it is not a MD-500 but a first gen Hughes, ever checked the aircraft logs? Shiny aircraft and nice avionics donīt mean the parts are in time and inspected acc. to manual.
However, there may the one guy every 1000 years, who does not care about money, but just, to give people a chance to go fly.
I met once a guy like that, but it was run down Cessna 152īs to "get people in the air!" The owner of the place was a retired TWA chief pilot. He did not have to make a living out of it!
On the remote chance he reads this:
Thanks to the man, as this got me into aviation!!!
3top
I sent you an e-mail to the Md-500 - comments apon your reply.
However, where I am, we have the same question with tunahelicopters:
The R-44 is taking over the market, however there are still Hughes-500 flying for the same price. It is pretty much impossible to make money AND maintain the ships legal for the price, where you still make decent money with a R-44.
Parts for Hughes 500īs are getting expensive.
As I thought it is not a MD-500 but a first gen Hughes, ever checked the aircraft logs? Shiny aircraft and nice avionics donīt mean the parts are in time and inspected acc. to manual.
However, there may the one guy every 1000 years, who does not care about money, but just, to give people a chance to go fly.
I met once a guy like that, but it was run down Cessna 152īs to "get people in the air!" The owner of the place was a retired TWA chief pilot. He did not have to make a living out of it!
On the remote chance he reads this:
Thanks to the man, as this got me into aviation!!!
3top
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
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I also saw the series on Mark Evans building the heli and thought "hmm - this all looks a bit too easy", particularly when he appeared to balance the blades in about 15 minutes.
However, the guy who did the test flight didn't seem to be too concerned about chucking it around the sky and seemed to have quit a lot of experience flying them (it must be bad enough flying something you've put together yourself, but flying something some other nerd has created takes pure insanity).
Anyway, shame we can't get the guy who did the test flight to speak up on here and state his connections with the company and then tell us why he doesn't feel unconfortable flying them.
Surely they can't ALL crash
However, the guy who did the test flight didn't seem to be too concerned about chucking it around the sky and seemed to have quit a lot of experience flying them (it must be bad enough flying something you've put together yourself, but flying something some other nerd has created takes pure insanity).
Anyway, shame we can't get the guy who did the test flight to speak up on here and state his connections with the company and then tell us why he doesn't feel unconfortable flying them.
Surely they can't ALL crash
Join Date: Jul 2002
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next 2 cents:
a. To the 300,-$ "MD"-500, it seems we have the second Samaritian in the last 1000 years on hand. The way it was explained to me, he does not make any money with this machine (and another he has), and it is only used for turbine transitions and sling load checkouts. He also has an EC120 and two R-44. The prices on these later models is definitely not in the same range, as these are used to generate a winspan.
So.........go for it, but check them carefully anyway!
b. To ravenx:
It is perfectly possible to balance the blades in 15 min with a good electronic balancer and not too much problems on the setup. Although I still have to get a helicopter where I could balance it in less than an hour.............must be me.
Track is another sucker - happend to me: done in three flights, but also thinking of using vodoo after 2 days not getting them to track satisfactory!! I think this is witchcraft anyway!!
The EXEC seems to be a fine helicopter and it is made so, that an average person can assemble it. Actually it is (in my view...) easier than restoring an old car or motorcyle - all new parts, packed in groups, excellent manual. If you know how to use common tools, know how to read [a manual...], just use your brains [common sense...]
What I DO NOT APPROVE OF at all is their policy to train pilots in steps: Get them to hover and send them home [to practise....!!!], train them on autos and [send them home...],.....and so on.
Helicopter training is not cheap, okay, but so isnīt a EXEC-kit.
Anyone building a EXEC, PPLLEEAASSEEE!!!, get ALL your training in one run, take vacationand stay at the factory, use their helos, or do it in a R-22 in your local flightschool (you manage a R-22 you manage anything- no joke!!), whatever, but get your licence BEFORE you start to fly your creation. Most accidents happen when something gets out of hand (hoverpractise - get into translational lift and youīre up - and what then?)
If you have the money for 70.000,- kit you should be able to come up with the 10 grand for a private helicopter ticket.
AGAIN: ANY helicopter-kit is NOT A CHEAP WAY TO GO FLY HELICOPTERS - see previous posts on this thread!!
DONīT DO IT IF YOU ARE NOT INTO THE BUILDING AND MAINTENANCE OF THE SHIP!!!
I am a CFI and do all kinds of work with a helo (about 6000 hrs now, about 400 as instructor, I have a student as this time....), I also help with the maintenance of helicopters - no A&P, but I work the manuals and tools, sometime I will have the time to get this ticket too. I know what is involved to built up or totally overhaul a small helicopter - Bell47 and R-44/22 - it is an awefull lot of work, but relative simple if you do it with a plan - see above.
BUT for the last time: If your hobby is flying and not building and maintaining - GO AND RENT!!
3top
a. To the 300,-$ "MD"-500, it seems we have the second Samaritian in the last 1000 years on hand. The way it was explained to me, he does not make any money with this machine (and another he has), and it is only used for turbine transitions and sling load checkouts. He also has an EC120 and two R-44. The prices on these later models is definitely not in the same range, as these are used to generate a winspan.
So.........go for it, but check them carefully anyway!
b. To ravenx:
It is perfectly possible to balance the blades in 15 min with a good electronic balancer and not too much problems on the setup. Although I still have to get a helicopter where I could balance it in less than an hour.............must be me.
Track is another sucker - happend to me: done in three flights, but also thinking of using vodoo after 2 days not getting them to track satisfactory!! I think this is witchcraft anyway!!
The EXEC seems to be a fine helicopter and it is made so, that an average person can assemble it. Actually it is (in my view...) easier than restoring an old car or motorcyle - all new parts, packed in groups, excellent manual. If you know how to use common tools, know how to read [a manual...], just use your brains [common sense...]
What I DO NOT APPROVE OF at all is their policy to train pilots in steps: Get them to hover and send them home [to practise....!!!], train them on autos and [send them home...],.....and so on.
Helicopter training is not cheap, okay, but so isnīt a EXEC-kit.
Anyone building a EXEC, PPLLEEAASSEEE!!!, get ALL your training in one run, take vacationand stay at the factory, use their helos, or do it in a R-22 in your local flightschool (you manage a R-22 you manage anything- no joke!!), whatever, but get your licence BEFORE you start to fly your creation. Most accidents happen when something gets out of hand (hoverpractise - get into translational lift and youīre up - and what then?)
If you have the money for 70.000,- kit you should be able to come up with the 10 grand for a private helicopter ticket.
AGAIN: ANY helicopter-kit is NOT A CHEAP WAY TO GO FLY HELICOPTERS - see previous posts on this thread!!
DONīT DO IT IF YOU ARE NOT INTO THE BUILDING AND MAINTENANCE OF THE SHIP!!!
I am a CFI and do all kinds of work with a helo (about 6000 hrs now, about 400 as instructor, I have a student as this time....), I also help with the maintenance of helicopters - no A&P, but I work the manuals and tools, sometime I will have the time to get this ticket too. I know what is involved to built up or totally overhaul a small helicopter - Bell47 and R-44/22 - it is an awefull lot of work, but relative simple if you do it with a plan - see above.
BUT for the last time: If your hobby is flying and not building and maintaining - GO AND RENT!!
3top
Last edited by 3top; 12th Sep 2002 at 03:10.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I had a passenger today who owns a EXEC - Elite (only three ever built), thats the one before the 162F, but it is way faster, he pushed it to 130 mph, with a new FADEC engine and new blades 0 hr both.
Lots of upgrades, 100.000,- negotiable, somewhere in the states, if you move fast I get hold of him, for you!
3top
Lots of upgrades, 100.000,- negotiable, somewhere in the states, if you move fast I get hold of him, for you!
3top
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Rotorway Exec crash
Cleveland.com
A Willowick pilot and his wife were hospitalized Sunday after their home-built helicopter hit two trees and crashed into the front yard of a Medina home while attempting an emergency landing.
Brian Geoffrion, 47, and his wife, Linda, 33, were flown to MetroHealth Medical Center, where they were listed in fair condition.
Another helicopter, flying behind the couple, landed safely in a cul-de-sac on Glenwell Circle. It was piloted by Bob Showalter of Atwater in Portage County.
Police say Brian Geoffrion was attempting an emergency landing onto the cul- de-sac when he crashed into the front yard of Scott and Michele Guthrie's house. The couple were not home.
"The helicopter was apparently experiencing mechanical problems," Sgt. Michael Combs of the State Highway Patrol said.
Combs said the Highway Patrol and the Federal Aviation Administration's Cleveland office are investigating the crash.
Mark Harris, a friend of the Geoffrions and Showalter, said the three were headed to his house in Litchfield, where they were planning to fly to a property on Pawnee Road that the Geoffrions were interested in.
"I'm glad they are OK," said Harris, who has known the couple for more than a decade. "He's a good pilot. There must have been some mechanical failure."
Brian Geoffrion, a licensed experimental-aircraft builder, has been a licensed helicopter pilot since 1992.
FAA records show Geoffrion built the RotorWay Exec helicopter from a kit. FAA inspectors certified it as airworthy in 1992.
RotorWay is an Arizona-based company that sells helicopter kits. About a dozen home-built RotorWay helicopters are registered in Ohio, and there are hundreds nationwide.
National Transportation Safety Board records show RotorWay helicopters have had 46 accidents since 1993, six of them resulting in fatalities.
Sunday's crash sent neighbors rushing out of their homes to see what had happened. Many said they either saw or heard the helicopter as it nose-dived to the ground. A nurse who lived in the neighborhood helped stabilize the couple until ambulances arrived.
Bob Ritter, 33, who lives next door to the Guthries, was on the phone when he heard a loud noise over his house. The crash caused minor damage to his car, which was parked in the driveway.
"Whatever it was, I thought it was going to go into my house," said Ritter, who had just finished feeding his baby.
Nick Wojciak, 16, was on the computer when he looked out the window and saw the helicop ter pass over his house. His house stands behind the Ritter home.
"The noise just got louder and louder," Nick said. "I watched it go through the trees and then crash. I was stunned. I thought, 'This can't be good.' Then I ran out."
The Guthries were taking their 10-year-old daughter and one- month-old son to the park when they got a call that a helicopter had crashed in their front yard.
"It's unbelievable. You drive back to your house and a helicopter is there," Michele Guthrie, 31, said. "We had just left the house. If we had waited any longer, we would have been in the yard."
Couple survive helicopter crash
03/01/04
Medina
03/01/04
Medina
A Willowick pilot and his wife were hospitalized Sunday after their home-built helicopter hit two trees and crashed into the front yard of a Medina home while attempting an emergency landing.
Brian Geoffrion, 47, and his wife, Linda, 33, were flown to MetroHealth Medical Center, where they were listed in fair condition.
Another helicopter, flying behind the couple, landed safely in a cul-de-sac on Glenwell Circle. It was piloted by Bob Showalter of Atwater in Portage County.
Police say Brian Geoffrion was attempting an emergency landing onto the cul- de-sac when he crashed into the front yard of Scott and Michele Guthrie's house. The couple were not home.
"The helicopter was apparently experiencing mechanical problems," Sgt. Michael Combs of the State Highway Patrol said.
Combs said the Highway Patrol and the Federal Aviation Administration's Cleveland office are investigating the crash.
Mark Harris, a friend of the Geoffrions and Showalter, said the three were headed to his house in Litchfield, where they were planning to fly to a property on Pawnee Road that the Geoffrions were interested in.
"I'm glad they are OK," said Harris, who has known the couple for more than a decade. "He's a good pilot. There must have been some mechanical failure."
Brian Geoffrion, a licensed experimental-aircraft builder, has been a licensed helicopter pilot since 1992.
FAA records show Geoffrion built the RotorWay Exec helicopter from a kit. FAA inspectors certified it as airworthy in 1992.
RotorWay is an Arizona-based company that sells helicopter kits. About a dozen home-built RotorWay helicopters are registered in Ohio, and there are hundreds nationwide.
National Transportation Safety Board records show RotorWay helicopters have had 46 accidents since 1993, six of them resulting in fatalities.
Sunday's crash sent neighbors rushing out of their homes to see what had happened. Many said they either saw or heard the helicopter as it nose-dived to the ground. A nurse who lived in the neighborhood helped stabilize the couple until ambulances arrived.
Bob Ritter, 33, who lives next door to the Guthries, was on the phone when he heard a loud noise over his house. The crash caused minor damage to his car, which was parked in the driveway.
"Whatever it was, I thought it was going to go into my house," said Ritter, who had just finished feeding his baby.
Nick Wojciak, 16, was on the computer when he looked out the window and saw the helicop ter pass over his house. His house stands behind the Ritter home.
"The noise just got louder and louder," Nick said. "I watched it go through the trees and then crash. I was stunned. I thought, 'This can't be good.' Then I ran out."
The Guthries were taking their 10-year-old daughter and one- month-old son to the park when they got a call that a helicopter had crashed in their front yard.
"It's unbelievable. You drive back to your house and a helicopter is there," Michele Guthrie, 31, said. "We had just left the house. If we had waited any longer, we would have been in the yard."
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Ascend Charlie - All Rotorways are two seat, side by side machines. From what I remember they have never made a single seat machine, only ones like that were the Mini 500 and that killed a lot of people.
Autorotate.
Autorotate.
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Fair value for the machine would be 35-37K in flying condition. The reason that I specify 'in flying condition' is because at the time of sale this machine was not in flying condition and is still awaiting accident damage repair. I confess to having been interested enough to consult the engineers who were listed in the advert as having 'completed' these repairs. I guess that makes the final price a small discount to the market providing the seller pays for the repairs. Good luck and safe flying to whoever bought it. Maybe one day 