Crash In Gloucester, 2 Injured
EC135 - day/night/all weather capability, a large cabin with room for more than one stretcher, the ability to get in and out of difficult sites without needing to comply with Cat A procedures and a winch. Is that enough?
Your paramedics did very well but I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2 - it's not exactly in their job spec to fight fires and rescue people is it? At least our winchmen are used to operating in hazardous situations and they are trained in post crash management and can advise the fire service when they are getting it wrong.
Tees - I am only arguing that the most appropriate asset should do the job. In an ideal world, all heli assets in the UK would be tasked through a central control but, as I have said before, when an ambulance authority has a helo it feels the need to use it for every callout regardless of patient need. If I had a pound for every casualty lifted from the beaches of North Devon by the AA that has to fly from Exeter, overhead Chivenor, to get there - leaving the cas waiting for up to an hour while there is a SAR helo 2 mins away.........
If this Gazelle had been in a slightly more difficult location, they would have had to wait for the AA to turn up, realise they couldn't assist and then have the SAR ac tasked; it could already be on the way. Or if both casualties had needed immediate evacuation on stretchers the SAR ac could have provided backup to the AA.
Your paramedics did very well but I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2 - it's not exactly in their job spec to fight fires and rescue people is it? At least our winchmen are used to operating in hazardous situations and they are trained in post crash management and can advise the fire service when they are getting it wrong.
Tees - I am only arguing that the most appropriate asset should do the job. In an ideal world, all heli assets in the UK would be tasked through a central control but, as I have said before, when an ambulance authority has a helo it feels the need to use it for every callout regardless of patient need. If I had a pound for every casualty lifted from the beaches of North Devon by the AA that has to fly from Exeter, overhead Chivenor, to get there - leaving the cas waiting for up to an hour while there is a SAR helo 2 mins away.........
If this Gazelle had been in a slightly more difficult location, they would have had to wait for the AA to turn up, realise they couldn't assist and then have the SAR ac tasked; it could already be on the way. Or if both casualties had needed immediate evacuation on stretchers the SAR ac could have provided backup to the AA.
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Crab
Your initial complaint that RCC was not advised has been debunked by ec135 who was first on scene.
Your comment that the 2 paramedics "did very well" was condescending in the extreme, they did a superb job.
"At least our winchmen are used to operating in hazardous situations and they are trained in post crash management". Do you not believe that paramedics are used to operating in hazardous situations? Don't you know that as part of their training they are taught to deal with post crash management? Air Ambulance paramedics see a lot more serious trauma than your average winchman
"I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2"!
I suspect not all winchmen are as brave as those two! Do you like the sound of that? I thought not. As an ex-crab SAR man who has been involved with UK EMS flying for the past 12 years I can assure you that the paramedics I have worked with have all been as brave and dedicated as the winchmen I was privileged to fly with. And that's saying something (as you know).
Ambulance control centres are busy places and it is up to the crew attending a job to tell the centre to call ARCC. Certainly in Yorkshire, if the AA was attending a job where they felt SAR would be the best asset, they would get comms to ring Kinloss. Or if attending a major RTC ( for instance a bus-load of pensioners crashed on the York bypass) the crew would make sure ARCC was informed so Leconfield could help. At the Selby train crash, apart from both Yorkshire and Lancashire AA attending, there were two RAF Sea Kings.
So I agree. You shouldn't be left out of the equation completely when it might make a difference. And I also agree that in an ideal world there would be some central tasking agency for SAR and AA helos but there isn't. Your North Devon beach example is shocking and I hope that kind of situation can be resolved locally.
Don't get "gripped". I can assure you and your colleagues that AA crews have nothing but respect and admiration for UK SAR crews and the the job you do. But this wasn't one for you.
Your initial complaint that RCC was not advised has been debunked by ec135 who was first on scene.
Your comment that the 2 paramedics "did very well" was condescending in the extreme, they did a superb job.
"At least our winchmen are used to operating in hazardous situations and they are trained in post crash management". Do you not believe that paramedics are used to operating in hazardous situations? Don't you know that as part of their training they are taught to deal with post crash management? Air Ambulance paramedics see a lot more serious trauma than your average winchman
"I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2"!
I suspect not all winchmen are as brave as those two! Do you like the sound of that? I thought not. As an ex-crab SAR man who has been involved with UK EMS flying for the past 12 years I can assure you that the paramedics I have worked with have all been as brave and dedicated as the winchmen I was privileged to fly with. And that's saying something (as you know).
Ambulance control centres are busy places and it is up to the crew attending a job to tell the centre to call ARCC. Certainly in Yorkshire, if the AA was attending a job where they felt SAR would be the best asset, they would get comms to ring Kinloss. Or if attending a major RTC ( for instance a bus-load of pensioners crashed on the York bypass) the crew would make sure ARCC was informed so Leconfield could help. At the Selby train crash, apart from both Yorkshire and Lancashire AA attending, there were two RAF Sea Kings.
So I agree. You shouldn't be left out of the equation completely when it might make a difference. And I also agree that in an ideal world there would be some central tasking agency for SAR and AA helos but there isn't. Your North Devon beach example is shocking and I hope that kind of situation can be resolved locally.
Don't get "gripped". I can assure you and your colleagues that AA crews have nothing but respect and admiration for UK SAR crews and the the job you do. But this wasn't one for you.
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Sorry Crab but you still havn't substantiated your claim that SAR assets should be tasked to all aircraft crashes in the UK.
Consider that tasking must be relevant to the nature of the incident and the terrain/time. This incident occurred on a sunny sunday afternoon in rural herefordshire, at the home of the aircraft owner (who made the initial call himself) Its a fair bet that in this circumstance access is reasonable, we assume he drives a car and can park at home.
We took off at 1700 at were on scene at 1710, the fire service attended minutes after us. The Police helicopter attended within 10 minutes of our arrival (thats my recollection, not a recorded time). Had I felt it necessary, I could have requested a second aircraft from our group, which would have been on scene within approx 20mins. Now lets say a resource was activated from chivenor? track distance about 85nm, time?
Our patient was at a major trauma unit in birmingham at 1805
If the call had stated that an aircraft had crashed into the side of Pen y Fan at 0100 then you might well be the most appropriate response, but you simply cannot say that you should be tasked to every aircraft accident in the uk.
Oh and by the way, it is offensive to suggest that there are air paramedics who are not as brave as the two I carried that day. Do you have winchmen who take a look out the back on a wet night and say "not tonight guv"? No I didn't think so.
Secondly, my aircraft is day/night/ifr capable, with the capability for fully coupled approaches to 50'. The only things we lack at the moment are a winch and nvg.
Consider that tasking must be relevant to the nature of the incident and the terrain/time. This incident occurred on a sunny sunday afternoon in rural herefordshire, at the home of the aircraft owner (who made the initial call himself) Its a fair bet that in this circumstance access is reasonable, we assume he drives a car and can park at home.
We took off at 1700 at were on scene at 1710, the fire service attended minutes after us. The Police helicopter attended within 10 minutes of our arrival (thats my recollection, not a recorded time). Had I felt it necessary, I could have requested a second aircraft from our group, which would have been on scene within approx 20mins. Now lets say a resource was activated from chivenor? track distance about 85nm, time?
Our patient was at a major trauma unit in birmingham at 1805
If the call had stated that an aircraft had crashed into the side of Pen y Fan at 0100 then you might well be the most appropriate response, but you simply cannot say that you should be tasked to every aircraft accident in the uk.
Oh and by the way, it is offensive to suggest that there are air paramedics who are not as brave as the two I carried that day. Do you have winchmen who take a look out the back on a wet night and say "not tonight guv"? No I didn't think so.
Secondly, my aircraft is day/night/ifr capable, with the capability for fully coupled approaches to 50'. The only things we lack at the moment are a winch and nvg.
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Crab, I am a great supporter of SAR work and the RCC. I have spent many weeks at such SAR Flights then based at Coltishall, Brawdy and Lossiemouth, flying and being educated by good SAR flight crews about what SAR work entails. This was as a result of a lack of knowledge within the organisation I work for. At the time I was involved in none aviation work, but set out to educate myself and pass that training/experience on and have done so since. I am now involved in aviation work and continue to educate SAR work where I can.
However, your comments:
“Your paramedics did very well but I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2 - it's not exactly in their job spec to fight fires and rescue people is it?”
is just insulting to other paramedics and other Emergency workers. I am not a paramedic to make that clear.
What do you think the average Emergency worker does each and very day when they are sent to incidents. Whether it be on the roads, railways, industrial accident, house fire or any type of incident you want to think of. The Police, Fire or Ambulance can’t choreograph their response so that if there is a fire, the Fire Services will arrive first and put out any fire. Then when its safe, the Ambulance crew arrives and deals with any casualties. Finally, the Police could then come along and sort it all out for a Coroner etc. This is the real world. The call goes out and they all make their way to do what they can – to save lives – not matter what the risk. Who gets there first, means they do what they can until the specialists for that situation arrives and deals. Sometimes they even come across incidents. What would you have them do then?
Prior to my aviation days, I have found myself times in the above situation where I could have done with another specialist service on scene befoe me and my colleagues. But my colleagues and I did the best that we could to help people.
This is going on every day by ORDINARY people. I have been to umpteen Cab crashes over the years where the ORDINARY public have done ORDINARY actions to save the crew, both civil and military.
Crab, your talk of bravery as you have, is an insult. Bravery - “quality of spirit that enables you to face danger of pain without showing fear” - is not selective, its generally spontaneous and without thought. It is in anyone, given the right circumstances.
Now going back towards one of your earlier posts. Your issue was that the RCC was not informed. Well I think two posters have said it was, one giving an approximate time.
Instead of moaning about not being called, why don’t you educate. Again, another poster has pointed out the situations within Ambo control rooms. It’s the same at Police and Fire too. Not so at the RCC and I have been there to see for myself. One of my SAR educators from years gone by works there. It may get busy, but not to the level of the others I have spoken of. So why not start an education program. Educate the civil control rooms, come along to controller courses, come along to HEMS and Police ASU courses. There are lots of inputs your organisation could contribute towards. I do not think I have ever been on a course where RAF SAR has ever been a contributor. And if you were to say to me, your organisation does not get invited, then I would politely suggest that RAF SAR should be approaching the civil Emergency Worker world and selling themselves at grass routes level.
The grass routes level is the important bit. They are the one's that press the big red button at times we are speaking of, not those who may have attended very expensive conferences on such subjects which your organisation may send a rep to, but grass routes cannot.
The other area you could look at is trying to get your protocols for attendance changed, Instead of you having to rely on requests. It may be difficult, but at least try.
Another problem is the perception of SAR. People still call it Air, Sea, Rescue. People (including most emergency workers) still think its all to do with winching out of water at the seaside. Perception, not the reality. But that view gets firmer the more inland you go. You need to do something about that.
And by the way, post crash management is just the same as preserving the scene at any fatal / major road traffic collision, with all its H & S issues considered. They do that lots every day to, getting it right nearly 100% of the time. Do you get it right 100% time?
However, your comments:
“Your paramedics did very well but I suspect not all of them are as brave as those 2 - it's not exactly in their job spec to fight fires and rescue people is it?”
is just insulting to other paramedics and other Emergency workers. I am not a paramedic to make that clear.
What do you think the average Emergency worker does each and very day when they are sent to incidents. Whether it be on the roads, railways, industrial accident, house fire or any type of incident you want to think of. The Police, Fire or Ambulance can’t choreograph their response so that if there is a fire, the Fire Services will arrive first and put out any fire. Then when its safe, the Ambulance crew arrives and deals with any casualties. Finally, the Police could then come along and sort it all out for a Coroner etc. This is the real world. The call goes out and they all make their way to do what they can – to save lives – not matter what the risk. Who gets there first, means they do what they can until the specialists for that situation arrives and deals. Sometimes they even come across incidents. What would you have them do then?
Prior to my aviation days, I have found myself times in the above situation where I could have done with another specialist service on scene befoe me and my colleagues. But my colleagues and I did the best that we could to help people.
This is going on every day by ORDINARY people. I have been to umpteen Cab crashes over the years where the ORDINARY public have done ORDINARY actions to save the crew, both civil and military.
Crab, your talk of bravery as you have, is an insult. Bravery - “quality of spirit that enables you to face danger of pain without showing fear” - is not selective, its generally spontaneous and without thought. It is in anyone, given the right circumstances.
Now going back towards one of your earlier posts. Your issue was that the RCC was not informed. Well I think two posters have said it was, one giving an approximate time.
Instead of moaning about not being called, why don’t you educate. Again, another poster has pointed out the situations within Ambo control rooms. It’s the same at Police and Fire too. Not so at the RCC and I have been there to see for myself. One of my SAR educators from years gone by works there. It may get busy, but not to the level of the others I have spoken of. So why not start an education program. Educate the civil control rooms, come along to controller courses, come along to HEMS and Police ASU courses. There are lots of inputs your organisation could contribute towards. I do not think I have ever been on a course where RAF SAR has ever been a contributor. And if you were to say to me, your organisation does not get invited, then I would politely suggest that RAF SAR should be approaching the civil Emergency Worker world and selling themselves at grass routes level.
The grass routes level is the important bit. They are the one's that press the big red button at times we are speaking of, not those who may have attended very expensive conferences on such subjects which your organisation may send a rep to, but grass routes cannot.
The other area you could look at is trying to get your protocols for attendance changed, Instead of you having to rely on requests. It may be difficult, but at least try.
Another problem is the perception of SAR. People still call it Air, Sea, Rescue. People (including most emergency workers) still think its all to do with winching out of water at the seaside. Perception, not the reality. But that view gets firmer the more inland you go. You need to do something about that.
And by the way, post crash management is just the same as preserving the scene at any fatal / major road traffic collision, with all its H & S issues considered. They do that lots every day to, getting it right nearly 100% of the time. Do you get it right 100% time?
Last edited by EjectEject; 16th May 2005 at 19:15.
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....cheaper but far less capable PFI.
But that is beside the point. The country is littered with emergency air assets, with little coordination between them. At the end of the day it is vitally important that the casualty gets assistance as quickly as possible, ie from the closest asset that is likely to be able to assist. If a man calls 999 to say he crashed his helicopter when landing at his house, it is reasonable to assume that an air ambulance 10mins away is the best asset, together with the local fire brigade. The casualty has to come first and if that means that the protocol that requires ARCCK to coordinate all aircraft crashes is overlooked then so be it.
Moreover, how would a family feel if their son had drowned on the N Devon coast because the Chivenor cab was away up country responding to a job it is not required for? Assigning assets is not just about capability, it is also about retaining cover for other incidents.
I agree Crab, there needs to be better coordination between all emergency services' airbourne assets. Maybe this should be part of the harmonisation of SAR assets in 2012.
Last week the Lincs/Notts air ambulance hosted an RAF Flt Lt ARCC controller for a day.
We received an excellent and detailed powerpoint presentation on the ARCC and the assets it controls. The controller was also able to observe our own control and operating procedures during 8 callouts that day.
We received an excellent and detailed powerpoint presentation on the ARCC and the assets it controls. The controller was also able to observe our own control and operating procedures during 8 callouts that day.
First and foremost - I do not denigrate any paramedic - I appear to have damned them with faint praise unintentionally. If you want me to say they did a fantastic job I will. Equally if you want to jump to conclusions about my views on paramedics (which some of you certainly have, and come to the wrong ones) then that is up to you.
Secondly - EC135 passed the aircraft reg to his control room who passed it to the ARCC - that is nowhere near the same as the ARCC being alerted to the incident straight away as they should be.
Third - the being out of area comment is farcical - how would your patient feel if the AA didn't launch because it was a. US, b. fogged in or c. on another job.
Fourth - how long does it take an AA to generate a second aircraft and crew and do all ambulance authorities have access to 2 aircraft?
Lastly - I am not slagging off civvy SAR as it stands at the moment but when Harmonisation occurs and the DfT looks at the bill for the whole of UKSAR, the bean counters will start cutting corners and capability - hence my comments. Will the CAA allow operators to hover taxi up the sides of mountains or under wires in cloud day or night? Let's see shall we.
Secondly - EC135 passed the aircraft reg to his control room who passed it to the ARCC - that is nowhere near the same as the ARCC being alerted to the incident straight away as they should be.
Third - the being out of area comment is farcical - how would your patient feel if the AA didn't launch because it was a. US, b. fogged in or c. on another job.
Fourth - how long does it take an AA to generate a second aircraft and crew and do all ambulance authorities have access to 2 aircraft?
Lastly - I am not slagging off civvy SAR as it stands at the moment but when Harmonisation occurs and the DfT looks at the bill for the whole of UKSAR, the bean counters will start cutting corners and capability - hence my comments. Will the CAA allow operators to hover taxi up the sides of mountains or under wires in cloud day or night? Let's see shall we.
Crab. You said;
"If I had a pound for every casualty lifted from the beaches of North Devon by the AA that has to fly from Exeter, overhead Chivenor, to get there - leaving the cas waiting for up to an hour while there is a SAR helo 2 mins away........."
Has that new air ambulance base at Barnstaple started yet?
"If I had a pound for every casualty lifted from the beaches of North Devon by the AA that has to fly from Exeter, overhead Chivenor, to get there - leaving the cas waiting for up to an hour while there is a SAR helo 2 mins away........."
Has that new air ambulance base at Barnstaple started yet?
Crab:I want to let you into a little secret:
The mil isn't the be all and end all. Having done 3 tours on Seakings and S61's SAR. 2 in the UK and 1 in N America, I probably have more hours than you in that regard.
I can count less than 10 OVERLAND rescues I did in the 6 years that saw me scrambling over telephone wires or creeping up mountain valleys... As you well know, there comes a limit where even the hallowed don't go
Of the hundreds remaining, they were all done in controlled circumstances where I believed I was coming home!
So lets not start comparing hero mil stories with civvy operators whose remit is not quite the same as yours.
Some FACTS for you:
Paramedics are BETTER trained than your crewmen. They train and practice their art DAILY. Your crewmen are not to the same medical standard as these guys.
In my 6 years as a HEMS driver, in 99% of cases (including in the middle of nowhere) where it was needed - firecrews were either there first or shortly thereafter. It is mainly down to these brave souls who go in and extricate the dead and injured [They also are left behind to pick up the personal belongings and wash all the gore away - people forget that].
Your crews do not have the expertise or the equipment to compete with them.
Class A performance is not a requirement for HEMS. You dont need to comply - to save life.
I can park my EC135 into a 40' circle, can you??? I can land it in all your landing sites and many more. Car parks / roof tops / Quarries...can you.
I can fly 2 patients at any time.
In 11 years as a police/Hems pilot, I have never ever wished I'd had a bigger aircraft.
So what do we have left:
I would call/expect a SAR cab to turn up:
(a) If the job was offshore
(b) If the job required a winch.
(c) If the job was on a large scale.
(d) If the weather was below my minimums (300'c/b / 1km viz.)
(e) If the job was nearer you than me.
That's about it really. You are a fantastic asset. You are on loan to the public (until the next review, atleast!) when you consider that the REAL reason for your existence is to pick up the extremely rare downed mil aircrew.
There is a very real need for additional assistance like yours. There can never be enough aerial assets.
BUT you most certainly are not the number one call out asset and can never be, for reasons (some of which) you so clearly listed:
You're not the nearest.
Might turn the job down due to mil committments
Might be u/s (surely not?).
Might be on another job.
Don't take this personally - but just reconsider for a minute:
Civvies can be and are just as effective as the mil in all sorts of departments. Burst that bubble
The mil isn't the be all and end all. Having done 3 tours on Seakings and S61's SAR. 2 in the UK and 1 in N America, I probably have more hours than you in that regard.
I can count less than 10 OVERLAND rescues I did in the 6 years that saw me scrambling over telephone wires or creeping up mountain valleys... As you well know, there comes a limit where even the hallowed don't go
Of the hundreds remaining, they were all done in controlled circumstances where I believed I was coming home!
So lets not start comparing hero mil stories with civvy operators whose remit is not quite the same as yours.
Some FACTS for you:
Paramedics are BETTER trained than your crewmen. They train and practice their art DAILY. Your crewmen are not to the same medical standard as these guys.
In my 6 years as a HEMS driver, in 99% of cases (including in the middle of nowhere) where it was needed - firecrews were either there first or shortly thereafter. It is mainly down to these brave souls who go in and extricate the dead and injured [They also are left behind to pick up the personal belongings and wash all the gore away - people forget that].
Your crews do not have the expertise or the equipment to compete with them.
Class A performance is not a requirement for HEMS. You dont need to comply - to save life.
I can park my EC135 into a 40' circle, can you??? I can land it in all your landing sites and many more. Car parks / roof tops / Quarries...can you.
I can fly 2 patients at any time.
In 11 years as a police/Hems pilot, I have never ever wished I'd had a bigger aircraft.
So what do we have left:
I would call/expect a SAR cab to turn up:
(a) If the job was offshore
(b) If the job required a winch.
(c) If the job was on a large scale.
(d) If the weather was below my minimums (300'c/b / 1km viz.)
(e) If the job was nearer you than me.
That's about it really. You are a fantastic asset. You are on loan to the public (until the next review, atleast!) when you consider that the REAL reason for your existence is to pick up the extremely rare downed mil aircrew.
There is a very real need for additional assistance like yours. There can never be enough aerial assets.
BUT you most certainly are not the number one call out asset and can never be, for reasons (some of which) you so clearly listed:
You're not the nearest.
Might turn the job down due to mil committments
Might be u/s (surely not?).
Might be on another job.
Don't take this personally - but just reconsider for a minute:
Civvies can be and are just as effective as the mil in all sorts of departments. Burst that bubble
Crab, I really think that you are belabouring the point here.
An aircraft crashed in a known, easily accesible position. Rescue services were on scene shortly after and Kinloss informed. I can only believe that from your opening post, that you weren't informed of the incident. Perhaps Kinloss thought that as everything was under control, they decided that your services weren't required. Perhaps you should direct your questions to them.
An aircraft crashed in a known, easily accesible position. Rescue services were on scene shortly after and Kinloss informed. I can only believe that from your opening post, that you weren't informed of the incident. Perhaps Kinloss thought that as everything was under control, they decided that your services weren't required. Perhaps you should direct your questions to them.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Further to Berties earlier post;
link
Crab,
Perhaps if you can spare 20mins of your time, you could pop down and talk to them. While doing this you could check them out to see if they are good enough to fit into your plan. I expect the DAAT could let you have the 5% of Devon they are unable to cover in 5 minutes, although you may have to reposition yourselves to be able to respond in time!
While you are there, would you like to pick up an Anaphylaxis kit just incase that bee in your bonnet turns nasty and stings you!!
link
Crab,
Perhaps if you can spare 20mins of your time, you could pop down and talk to them. While doing this you could check them out to see if they are good enough to fit into your plan. I expect the DAAT could let you have the 5% of Devon they are unable to cover in 5 minutes, although you may have to reposition yourselves to be able to respond in time!
While you are there, would you like to pick up an Anaphylaxis kit just incase that bee in your bonnet turns nasty and stings you!!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 16th May 2005 at 01:30.
Yes I know the old 105 is being based in N Devon this year - it only goes to highlight the unsatisfactory arrangement of having one AA for a county the size of Devon and ignoring the other available asset (which is already paid for and doesn't the public to dig into their pocket to provide). In fact they were originally going to be based at Chivenor but I don't think they liked the crap accommodation.
Our paramedics are trained to NHS standard and have been for many years (in the RAF) so they are of the same standard as AA but don't get the same amount of hands on. The rules require them to complete exactly the same continuity and assessment training as any NHS paramedic so let's not slag the boys off for lack of capability (especially since they have to do it on moving decks, sides of mountains etc).
Mighty - the Gazelle fortunately did crash in an easily accessible area in benign conditions. But Kinloss were only informed once EC135 was on scene (this is my point and why I am labouring it) they didn't get to choose whether or not to send us in response to an initial call because no-one called them. In this case we would have been stood down en-route but at least we would have been airborne in case we were needed.
Mustfly - where is that then?(especially night)
TC is that 2 patients in stretchers? The 135 five is very nice but I don't think it is that big. You know that there is enough room in the Sea King for not only 2 stretchers but also for doctors/paramedics to work on those caualties effectively en-route.
I was not comparing our rearcrew with firecrew but with AA paramedics and I don't remember slagging the firemen off for not being brave.
And for the last time - my post was about use of the ARCC in coordinating responses to aircraft crashes (their job) not about who has the best capability or the biggest dick.
North Wales has an ideal situation since a previous SAR flight commander is now one of the AA pilots and redirects calls straight to the SAR flt if he thinks they might be needed. Does that qualify as military educating the EMS community? We in SAR are not the ones in a bubble of superiority - no-one here (except Bertie who is ex RAF) has suggested inviting their local SAR flt or the ARCC to brief them on what we do. There is only one ARCC and only 8 mil SAR flts - how many ambulance control rooms and AA units are there? We know how your system works but the comments of many here show they don't understand ours.
Our paramedics are trained to NHS standard and have been for many years (in the RAF) so they are of the same standard as AA but don't get the same amount of hands on. The rules require them to complete exactly the same continuity and assessment training as any NHS paramedic so let's not slag the boys off for lack of capability (especially since they have to do it on moving decks, sides of mountains etc).
Mighty - the Gazelle fortunately did crash in an easily accessible area in benign conditions. But Kinloss were only informed once EC135 was on scene (this is my point and why I am labouring it) they didn't get to choose whether or not to send us in response to an initial call because no-one called them. In this case we would have been stood down en-route but at least we would have been airborne in case we were needed.
Mustfly - where is that then?(especially night)
TC is that 2 patients in stretchers? The 135 five is very nice but I don't think it is that big. You know that there is enough room in the Sea King for not only 2 stretchers but also for doctors/paramedics to work on those caualties effectively en-route.
I was not comparing our rearcrew with firecrew but with AA paramedics and I don't remember slagging the firemen off for not being brave.
And for the last time - my post was about use of the ARCC in coordinating responses to aircraft crashes (their job) not about who has the best capability or the biggest dick.
North Wales has an ideal situation since a previous SAR flight commander is now one of the AA pilots and redirects calls straight to the SAR flt if he thinks they might be needed. Does that qualify as military educating the EMS community? We in SAR are not the ones in a bubble of superiority - no-one here (except Bertie who is ex RAF) has suggested inviting their local SAR flt or the ARCC to brief them on what we do. There is only one ARCC and only 8 mil SAR flts - how many ambulance control rooms and AA units are there? We know how your system works but the comments of many here show they don't understand ours.
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Just thought I'd ask...........
How is the lady involved in this very sad accident?
Driver please pass on my congratulations to DL & SK.
'Crab', you really need to sniff a very large strong coffee!!
Where has this thread gone??
How is the lady involved in this very sad accident?
Driver please pass on my congratulations to DL & SK.
'Crab', you really need to sniff a very large strong coffee!!
Where has this thread gone??
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First of all I am glad to hear the lady has come out of the coma and I hope she continues to make a speedy recovery.
Crab,
I appreciate what you are trying to say and I know how important command and control is when dealing with incidents. After all someone has to coordinate the efforts of the various assets deemed necessary to respond to a tasking. There is no doubt that ARCC are the experts in coordinating response to air accidents.
But in this case, the pilot raised the alarm not on RT, but by telephone. We don't know what was said in the conversation with the 999 controller, but it would have been clear that the incident occured in a back garden of a rural, but not remote location. This incident is not about looking for an over due aircraft in the Highlands of Scotland or in the mountains of Wales. Nor are we talking about a large aircraft with many many passengers. As I said in my previous post and I am sure you will agree, the casualty must come first. Therefore given the FIRST HAND information the ambulance controller had, it would be perfectly reasonable to respond using an air ambulance and fire brigade. Involving ARCC would have delayed the response to the incident by at least a couple of phone calls. Following the proper protocols (which it seems has not been communicated to ambulance controls around the country) would almost certainly have delayed treatment reaching the casualty and that is simply not good.
Crab,
I appreciate what you are trying to say and I know how important command and control is when dealing with incidents. After all someone has to coordinate the efforts of the various assets deemed necessary to respond to a tasking. There is no doubt that ARCC are the experts in coordinating response to air accidents.
But in this case, the pilot raised the alarm not on RT, but by telephone. We don't know what was said in the conversation with the 999 controller, but it would have been clear that the incident occured in a back garden of a rural, but not remote location. This incident is not about looking for an over due aircraft in the Highlands of Scotland or in the mountains of Wales. Nor are we talking about a large aircraft with many many passengers. As I said in my previous post and I am sure you will agree, the casualty must come first. Therefore given the FIRST HAND information the ambulance controller had, it would be perfectly reasonable to respond using an air ambulance and fire brigade. Involving ARCC would have delayed the response to the incident by at least a couple of phone calls. Following the proper protocols (which it seems has not been communicated to ambulance controls around the country) would almost certainly have delayed treatment reaching the casualty and that is simply not good.
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Just an update for Governormalfunction and those of you concerned about the welfare of the lady involved. She has had major surgery, but is continuing to make progress. She is not breathing on her own yet, but is awake.
The pilot is also making progress. Relative to the lady he was not so badly injured, but even so, he was worse than we first realised, and I can’t imagine how he managed to climb out of the wreckage.
The pilot is also making progress. Relative to the lady he was not so badly injured, but even so, he was worse than we first realised, and I can’t imagine how he managed to climb out of the wreckage.
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I wish to compliment Thomas Coupling on his recent reply to crab.
As a SAR pilot I am beginning to get concerned that his comments might be taken as in anyway representative of those of SAR crews in general.
They are not.
In fact, I cannot help thinking it must be a wind up!
The assets that were used on the task that prompted this thread were, as far as I am aware, by far the most suitable and the most qualified.
The average SAR machine is not ideal for this task, not least because it ties up an asset which maybe required in more appropriate circumstances.
I think thanks must go to everybody in the chain of recovery including the hospital.
If I ever end up in similar bother then a 135, a couple of well qualified paramedics, a pilot with some local knowledge and a quick transfer to hospital will do me fine thanks.
As regards the CAA not allowing this or that, I have never had the CAA question my judgement in carrying out any tasking although I fully expect to do so should they ask.
I cannot see that they would ever now or in the future say no to a job requiring the saving of life providing that it was fully justifiable.
By justifiable I mean that
1) The casualties are in immediate danger
2) There is no quicker or safer way of accomplishing the task
3) The risk to the helicopter and crew should be balanced against the condition of the casualties.
4) The competence of the crew and helicopter capability must be considered
5) Most importantly of all, third parties must not be put at undue risk.
Apologies for straying slightly away from the thread again but it had to be said
As a SAR pilot I am beginning to get concerned that his comments might be taken as in anyway representative of those of SAR crews in general.
They are not.
In fact, I cannot help thinking it must be a wind up!
The assets that were used on the task that prompted this thread were, as far as I am aware, by far the most suitable and the most qualified.
The average SAR machine is not ideal for this task, not least because it ties up an asset which maybe required in more appropriate circumstances.
I think thanks must go to everybody in the chain of recovery including the hospital.
If I ever end up in similar bother then a 135, a couple of well qualified paramedics, a pilot with some local knowledge and a quick transfer to hospital will do me fine thanks.
As regards the CAA not allowing this or that, I have never had the CAA question my judgement in carrying out any tasking although I fully expect to do so should they ask.
I cannot see that they would ever now or in the future say no to a job requiring the saving of life providing that it was fully justifiable.
By justifiable I mean that
1) The casualties are in immediate danger
2) There is no quicker or safer way of accomplishing the task
3) The risk to the helicopter and crew should be balanced against the condition of the casualties.
4) The competence of the crew and helicopter capability must be considered
5) Most importantly of all, third parties must not be put at undue risk.
Apologies for straying slightly away from the thread again but it had to be said
Presstransdown - I would suggest that my comments are representative of the military SAR world ie 8 flights around UK but maybe not your world (3 flights).
Once again I have to explain that in this Gazelle crash the outcome was very satisfactory but not due to planning or following procedure and that had there been any other complications (the pilot turns out to have had worse injuries than first appeared but he couldn't have been given the option to be stretchered to hospital because the asset on scene can't carry 2 stretchers at once) the outcome could have been different since the ARCC was only involved late on.
Press- how many searches have you had to do after dark even though the casualty went missing in the middle of the day? The same mentality that prevents people asking for a SAR aircraft straight away when we might have a chance of saving them is the mindset I am trying to fight against.
Proper coordination of airborne assets in UK is essential - so far we have been lucky.
Once again I have to explain that in this Gazelle crash the outcome was very satisfactory but not due to planning or following procedure and that had there been any other complications (the pilot turns out to have had worse injuries than first appeared but he couldn't have been given the option to be stretchered to hospital because the asset on scene can't carry 2 stretchers at once) the outcome could have been different since the ARCC was only involved late on.
Press- how many searches have you had to do after dark even though the casualty went missing in the middle of the day? The same mentality that prevents people asking for a SAR aircraft straight away when we might have a chance of saving them is the mindset I am trying to fight against.
Proper coordination of airborne assets in UK is essential - so far we have been lucky.
There are no limits
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So now you drive a wedge between you and your Civilian SAR mates - do you speak for Royal Navy SAR as well?
We do need a coordinated and consistent airborne response to all needs - but it will never happen with your divisive attitude.
We do need a coordinated and consistent airborne response to all needs - but it will never happen with your divisive attitude.