time to 1st solo rotary
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Time to solo?
Esteemed Rotorheads, may I have some advice please.
Where would I find some reliable research (rather than a straw poll) which gives an average time for students to go solo in a helicopter, and secondly, whether it is better to train straight onto a helicopter or to learn on a fixed wing first?
Where would I find some reliable research (rather than a straw poll) which gives an average time for students to go solo in a helicopter, and secondly, whether it is better to train straight onto a helicopter or to learn on a fixed wing first?
Hovering AND talking
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As far as I am aware, there is no research so the best you might hope for is anecdotal evidence from a few instructors.
I'm not sure "hours to solo" proves anything. It can depend, of course, on the student's ability but also the instructor philosophy. Some students go solo early for the fact they've gone solo; others, much later. It doesn't matter.
For what it's worth, I went solo after about 40 hours and got my licence in 67. Some go after 10 but still get their licence after 60/70 hours.
With respect to your second question, if all you want to do is fly a helicopter, I don't see any point in getting fixed wing first. I didn't; in fact, I've never flown in anything smaller than a 737 and then I'm a passenger!! 15 minutes glider time is all I have!
It depends on what you want to do with your licence and whether that licence is PPL or CPL.
Cheers
Whirls
I'm not sure "hours to solo" proves anything. It can depend, of course, on the student's ability but also the instructor philosophy. Some students go solo early for the fact they've gone solo; others, much later. It doesn't matter.
For what it's worth, I went solo after about 40 hours and got my licence in 67. Some go after 10 but still get their licence after 60/70 hours.
With respect to your second question, if all you want to do is fly a helicopter, I don't see any point in getting fixed wing first. I didn't; in fact, I've never flown in anything smaller than a 737 and then I'm a passenger!! 15 minutes glider time is all I have!
It depends on what you want to do with your licence and whether that licence is PPL or CPL.
Cheers
Whirls
Lowest I ever saw was about 10hrs, highest about 100hrs to solo.
The thing a lot of people forget is that its not a contest, from a safety point of view you are ready, when you are ready. Higher hours to solo don't always mean low ability, sometime perhaps they do, but so what if you are that bad hopefully your instructor or school will tell you (from UK experience i doubt they will).
I'll see if I can find the stats I did a year or so ago to support this, from a school I worked at once.
V.
The thing a lot of people forget is that its not a contest, from a safety point of view you are ready, when you are ready. Higher hours to solo don't always mean low ability, sometime perhaps they do, but so what if you are that bad hopefully your instructor or school will tell you (from UK experience i doubt they will).
I'll see if I can find the stats I did a year or so ago to support this, from a school I worked at once.
V.
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Breakscrew,
In regards to doing your fixed wing licence, in Australia you get a reduction in hours needs for helicopter commercial if you hold a ppl/cpl fixed wing. When I did my licence I did my ppl fixed wing first.
The cpl helicopter will cost you the same but at least you get a plank wing licence thrown in.
Not sure of the regs. in your part of world but well worth checking.
In regards to doing your fixed wing licence, in Australia you get a reduction in hours needs for helicopter commercial if you hold a ppl/cpl fixed wing. When I did my licence I did my ppl fixed wing first.
The cpl helicopter will cost you the same but at least you get a plank wing licence thrown in.
Not sure of the regs. in your part of world but well worth checking.
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One good thing about students that have a fixed wing is they have lookout,Radio,Nav etc kinda sorted and can concentrate on just learning to fly the chopper, I think they progress faster...but just my point of view
The Military used to go that route when I went through, and I'm sure that they had a reasonable justification for it! My FW first solo was 7 hours, but the helicopter took me 10: I must have forgotten something along the way
Hovering AND talking
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In the UK, the maximum reduction in the minimum hours required for a PPL(H) licence issue is 6 hours if a PPL(A) is already held.
So, at £250 per hour for a helicopter that would be £1,500. However, a fixed wing licence first would cost, say, £5,000. For £5,000, one could have 20 hours helicopter. So, if you passed your PPL(H) in 65 hours, you would break even. As I said, I did mine in 67 hours so if I had done a fixed wing licence first, I could have saved £500.
Of course it's hard to quantify how many hours it would have taken me had I passed PPL(A) first but I really don't think it makes that much difference. Airmanship has to be learned anyway. As does radio. If someone doesn't actually want to fly fixed wing, what is the point of doing it and spending the extra money for a licence that may well lapse because the motivation isn't there to maintain it and keep up the hours?
Cheers
Whirls
So, at £250 per hour for a helicopter that would be £1,500. However, a fixed wing licence first would cost, say, £5,000. For £5,000, one could have 20 hours helicopter. So, if you passed your PPL(H) in 65 hours, you would break even. As I said, I did mine in 67 hours so if I had done a fixed wing licence first, I could have saved £500.
Of course it's hard to quantify how many hours it would have taken me had I passed PPL(A) first but I really don't think it makes that much difference. Airmanship has to be learned anyway. As does radio. If someone doesn't actually want to fly fixed wing, what is the point of doing it and spending the extra money for a licence that may well lapse because the motivation isn't there to maintain it and keep up the hours?
Cheers
Whirls
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Another point to bear in mind when discussing this subject...
First solo in a heli is generally a 5 minute hovering exercise whereas first solo in a plank is a full circuit. I would suggest a better statistic is first solo circuit in a heli as this is a better measure of wider ability.
On the subject of heli to plank conversion. Have a look at NPPL as you only need to do sufficient hours to pass the test. Could only be a handfull. I know it is more restrictive but it is a start.
First solo in a heli is generally a 5 minute hovering exercise whereas first solo in a plank is a full circuit. I would suggest a better statistic is first solo circuit in a heli as this is a better measure of wider ability.
On the subject of heli to plank conversion. Have a look at NPPL as you only need to do sufficient hours to pass the test. Could only be a handfull. I know it is more restrictive but it is a start.
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Time to first solo depends on a number of factors:
If a student did not show signs of going solo by 8 hours, he/she would be put under the microscope and most likely given a change of instructor, at least for a short period, to assess what was the problem. A number of students who went solo in under 8 hours. However, I'm sure that this would not have been the case had they not already had a fixed-wing ppl.
Just noticed in Three Blades posting the reference to helicopter first solos only being a quick hovering exercise. Not the case where I worked, unless you consider the initial hover and landing that we signalled the student to perform before we gave the final thumbs-up to lift into the hover for the second time and perform a complete circuit. The criteria for the decision to send the student? Essentially, apart from the obvious need to be able to control the helicopter accurately and demonstrate safe airmanship, we had to be satisfied that, if the engine failed during the circuit, the student should be able to perform an engine off landing without harming others on the ground (or in the air!!) and be able to walk away from the machine (or what was left of it!!)
Conversely, a number of experienced CPL and ATPL fixed-wing pilots found it very difficult to make the transition to helicopters. Hovering and washing the speed of to zero during the approach were some of the majoe stumbling blocks.
- The students natural (or not so natural) aptitude
- Previous flying experience (fixed-wing, hang glider etc maybe not hot-air balloons though!!)
- The ability of the instructor(s) to impart the necessary skills
- The type of training course you undertake:
- Full time over a compressed period
- Every weekend
- Every other weekend
- When you can afford it etc
If a student did not show signs of going solo by 8 hours, he/she would be put under the microscope and most likely given a change of instructor, at least for a short period, to assess what was the problem. A number of students who went solo in under 8 hours. However, I'm sure that this would not have been the case had they not already had a fixed-wing ppl.
Just noticed in Three Blades posting the reference to helicopter first solos only being a quick hovering exercise. Not the case where I worked, unless you consider the initial hover and landing that we signalled the student to perform before we gave the final thumbs-up to lift into the hover for the second time and perform a complete circuit. The criteria for the decision to send the student? Essentially, apart from the obvious need to be able to control the helicopter accurately and demonstrate safe airmanship, we had to be satisfied that, if the engine failed during the circuit, the student should be able to perform an engine off landing without harming others on the ground (or in the air!!) and be able to walk away from the machine (or what was left of it!!)
Conversely, a number of experienced CPL and ATPL fixed-wing pilots found it very difficult to make the transition to helicopters. Hovering and washing the speed of to zero during the approach were some of the majoe stumbling blocks.
Hovering AND talking
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we had to be satisfied that, if the engine failed during the circuit, the student should be able to perform an engine off landing without harming others on the ground (or in the air!!) and be able to walk away from the machine
Cheers
Whirls
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I went solo in about 7 hrs. We were expected to complete a full circuit and be competent in dealing with likely emergencies. I already had a few fixed wing hours which certainly helped but I wouldn't say it would be worth missing rotary time if heli's are your final aim.
It's well worth blagging as many hours as possible as a passenger in either planks or rotary just to get used to perpective of things from the air. Maybe even help out with the nav. Spotting airfields etc... can be devilishly difficult before you've 'got your eye in' and it's useful developing the skill as the non-handling pilot.
Have a chat with your local flying schools. There's bound to be a few people hour building towards a CPL who'd be glad to have someone along to chat to. 100 odd hours bumbling around in an R22 on their own will probably be driving them a little crazy!
It's well worth blagging as many hours as possible as a passenger in either planks or rotary just to get used to perpective of things from the air. Maybe even help out with the nav. Spotting airfields etc... can be devilishly difficult before you've 'got your eye in' and it's useful developing the skill as the non-handling pilot.
Have a chat with your local flying schools. There's bound to be a few people hour building towards a CPL who'd be glad to have someone along to chat to. 100 odd hours bumbling around in an R22 on their own will probably be driving them a little crazy!
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First helicopter solo was at 20 hours. Insurance requirements at that school said that was the minimum ...
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Unhinged,
I agree, in the UK Military training system the first heli solo is a square 1000' circuit, taking all of 5 mins, ending back at the point in the middle of the airfield where the instructor nervoursly awaits watching his/her student complete circuit.
This happens between 12-17 hrs heli after about 75hrs fixed wing.
I guess the students aren't trusted to hover taxi in close proximity to millions of pounds worth of other aircraft after only a few hours! even to the point of sometimes getting their instructor to fly them to a relief landing site for their first solo.
MS
I agree, in the UK Military training system the first heli solo is a square 1000' circuit, taking all of 5 mins, ending back at the point in the middle of the airfield where the instructor nervoursly awaits watching his/her student complete circuit.
This happens between 12-17 hrs heli after about 75hrs fixed wing.
I guess the students aren't trusted to hover taxi in close proximity to millions of pounds worth of other aircraft after only a few hours! even to the point of sometimes getting their instructor to fly them to a relief landing site for their first solo.
MS
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Unhinged,
I agree, in the UK Military training system the first heli solo is a square 1000' circuit, taking all of 5 mins, ending back at the point in the middle of the airfield where the instructor nervoursly awaits watching his/her student complete circuit.
This happens between 12-17 hrs heli after about 75hrs fixed wing.
I guess the students aren't trusted to hover taxi in close proximity to millions of pounds worth of other aircraft after only a few hours! even to the point of sometimes getting their instructor to fly them to a relief landing site for their first solo.
MS
I agree, in the UK Military training system the first heli solo is a square 1000' circuit, taking all of 5 mins, ending back at the point in the middle of the airfield where the instructor nervoursly awaits watching his/her student complete circuit.
This happens between 12-17 hrs heli after about 75hrs fixed wing.
I guess the students aren't trusted to hover taxi in close proximity to millions of pounds worth of other aircraft after only a few hours! even to the point of sometimes getting their instructor to fly them to a relief landing site for their first solo.
MS
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That's pretty good in 8 hours!
Regular progress assessments were made throughout the course, and those that began to fall behind the curve, particularly in the first quarter of the training hours, were put on review. Some were ultimately "returned to sender".
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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Whirls, I attended the same type of course as described by Flyer43. All bar one of my course soloed in less than eight hours. The one who didn't was chopped at fifteen hours. However we all had FW ppl's and so had the basic airmanship, radio etc under control.
However I keep reading tales on here of students reaching 100 or more hours to PPL solo. Surely these people should be told to take up golf or knitting.
However I keep reading tales on here of students reaching 100 or more hours to PPL solo. Surely these people should be told to take up golf or knitting.
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Time to solo - RN 1979
Just checked log book - went solo on Gazelle (a long time back) in 10.5 hrs excluding 50 minute first area famil which was a blast around Lands End at cliff top height. As far as I can recall most studes were solo-ing in the same kind of hours. However....and a big however....all of us had come straight from 80 hours plus on Bulldogs at Leeming.
The FW time familiarises one-self with the basics of airmanship, R/T and general environment of hurtling around the skies in a ton or so of metal and plastic.
Not essential...but a benefit nonetheless??
Just checked log book - went solo on Gazelle (a long time back) in 10.5 hrs excluding 50 minute first area famil which was a blast around Lands End at cliff top height. As far as I can recall most studes were solo-ing in the same kind of hours. However....and a big however....all of us had come straight from 80 hours plus on Bulldogs at Leeming.
The FW time familiarises one-self with the basics of airmanship, R/T and general environment of hurtling around the skies in a ton or so of metal and plastic.
Not essential...but a benefit nonetheless??
Hovering AND talking
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I’m not sure it gives a fair indication to anyone to quote solo hours in a military training environment. I’m also not sure it’s fair to say that anyone who doesn’t go solo in 100 hours should give up.
All people are different and learn at different rates. I found flying incredibly difficult to begin with just as I found driving and riding a motorbike. However, with thousands of road miles under my belt and advanced driving and motorbike training, I am now quite competent. I passed both tests first time but only after having lots of lessons and training. Friends of the same age passed their driving tests with fewer lessons than me but, by ‘eck, there are appallingly bad drivers now. It’s as if they learnt enough to pass their test and thought, that’s it, I’ve done it, learning stops, I’ve done the minimum and that’s all that’s required.
So what if someone’s slow to learn. It might mean that they’ve learnt it better and there may be more chance of it sinking in and staying there.
As with all other “time to solo” threads (and there have been many on Private Flying), it turns into a contest. Any reduction on 7 hours? So, to all those ex-mil / talented guys who were fortunate to have some of the best training in the world, how do you think the poor civvy student feels now when he/she still hasn’t soloed in 40 hours? Inadequate probably. Disheartened as well.
It doesn’t matter and I don’t think, ultimately, it makes a scrap of difference in the long term.
Cheers
Whirls
All people are different and learn at different rates. I found flying incredibly difficult to begin with just as I found driving and riding a motorbike. However, with thousands of road miles under my belt and advanced driving and motorbike training, I am now quite competent. I passed both tests first time but only after having lots of lessons and training. Friends of the same age passed their driving tests with fewer lessons than me but, by ‘eck, there are appallingly bad drivers now. It’s as if they learnt enough to pass their test and thought, that’s it, I’ve done it, learning stops, I’ve done the minimum and that’s all that’s required.
So what if someone’s slow to learn. It might mean that they’ve learnt it better and there may be more chance of it sinking in and staying there.
As with all other “time to solo” threads (and there have been many on Private Flying), it turns into a contest. Any reduction on 7 hours? So, to all those ex-mil / talented guys who were fortunate to have some of the best training in the world, how do you think the poor civvy student feels now when he/she still hasn’t soloed in 40 hours? Inadequate probably. Disheartened as well.
It doesn’t matter and I don’t think, ultimately, it makes a scrap of difference in the long term.
Cheers
Whirls
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And don't forget the other factor............ Weather..... You might be ready for solo but if the weather isn't being co-operative for your first solo then it's not going to happen. You can fly in much worse with that deadweight known as an instructor, than what he or she will happily let you off on your own in...
The Original Whirly
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I suspect the type of helicopter makes a difference too. I really don't see how anyone can be ready for solo in 8 hours in the non-forgiving R22.
The numbers just don't add up. As I teach it....
First half hour - trial lesson - OK, we could dispense with that.
So...
Ist hour - Ex 4, Effects of Controls. Important to really go over that, even for a natural who can handle them. Minimum half an hour to show them everything. Spend next half hour hovering, and the real natural manages it on all three controls, say.
2nd hour - Ex 5 - Speed and Power changes. Also half an hour minimum, just to demonstrate everything. Rest of time spent hovering; brilliant student is now managing take-offs and landings.
3rd hour - Ex 6. He/she just about manages straight and level, climbing, descending , turning, in an hour. Never seen it done, but...maybe.
4th hour - Finish off hovering, takeoffs and landings, engine failure in hover, spot turns.
5th Hour - Ex 7 - Autos.
6th hour - Ex 10. Transitions.
7th and 8th hours - Circuits, including all emergencies.
9th hour - Engine off landings - necessary; they need to stand a chance of making it should the worst happen.
10th hour - 1st solo.
I can't imagine even that being possible, but maybe, just. But how on earth do you do it in less time?
The numbers just don't add up. As I teach it....
First half hour - trial lesson - OK, we could dispense with that.
So...
Ist hour - Ex 4, Effects of Controls. Important to really go over that, even for a natural who can handle them. Minimum half an hour to show them everything. Spend next half hour hovering, and the real natural manages it on all three controls, say.
2nd hour - Ex 5 - Speed and Power changes. Also half an hour minimum, just to demonstrate everything. Rest of time spent hovering; brilliant student is now managing take-offs and landings.
3rd hour - Ex 6. He/she just about manages straight and level, climbing, descending , turning, in an hour. Never seen it done, but...maybe.
4th hour - Finish off hovering, takeoffs and landings, engine failure in hover, spot turns.
5th Hour - Ex 7 - Autos.
6th hour - Ex 10. Transitions.
7th and 8th hours - Circuits, including all emergencies.
9th hour - Engine off landings - necessary; they need to stand a chance of making it should the worst happen.
10th hour - 1st solo.
I can't imagine even that being possible, but maybe, just. But how on earth do you do it in less time?