R22 Corner
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R22 alt/battery failure
If that alternator light comes on and stays on...
how long till the battery loses its charge?
I know that the POH says:
"continued flight with malfunctioning chargning system can result in loss of power to electronic tachometers..."
but is that all you'll lose if the battery quits?
how about:
-governor
-radio
-transponder
-gps
-landing lights
-nav lights
-strobe
thanks for any input
J
how long till the battery loses its charge?
I know that the POH says:
"continued flight with malfunctioning chargning system can result in loss of power to electronic tachometers..."
but is that all you'll lose if the battery quits?
how about:
-governor
-radio
-transponder
-gps
-landing lights
-nav lights
-strobe
thanks for any input
J
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As Aser says, it really depends. If I was at night, I would want some battery for the landing light when I get down, and panel lights maybe. If I was in 'Class B' I might choose to keep the transponder on. If I was in low vis, then maybe the strobe would stay on.
Radio Transmit draws a lot. So does the landing light. The other equipment draws little. The situation would dictate how you use your remaining supply.
As the POH says 'Land as soon as practical', I would think there would be enough for about 10-15 miles of flight. But that is a COMPLETE guess.
Maybe a techie can answer this.
cl12pv2s
Radio Transmit draws a lot. So does the landing light. The other equipment draws little. The situation would dictate how you use your remaining supply.
As the POH says 'Land as soon as practical', I would think there would be enough for about 10-15 miles of flight. But that is a COMPLETE guess.
Maybe a techie can answer this.
cl12pv2s
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The R44 has between 30 and 45 mins of battery life after the red ALT light illuminates. The POH is 'land as soon as practicable' so you do not need to dive into the nearest field. In most of the UK, this will mean an urgent divert to the nearest airfield, with a stop watch running to ensure you keep WELL WITHIN the timings.
If this is not possible then locate a suitable secure landing site)next to big house, etc) as an engineer will appear at some point within 24hrs with a new or replacement alternator.
(I've had this problem - it was a loose alternator pillar. The red light winked on and off for a while then stayed on. Divert ensued. This could be a bigger issue over water or in remote areas. Make the radio call as soon as it happens).
For the R22 the figures are "similiar". I did once take a R22 in for maintenance with the alternator out as the second pilot on board. The J/T was 25 mins.
In all cases, minimise electrical usage. Take out the second radio/ GPS/ lights if not dark/ etc to keep amp usage down and watch the Ammeter.
For this point try the Robinson Safety Course. It can be done but care needed to avoid overspeed (and stall). Engine sound is the clue but better not to be in the situation.
If this is not possible then locate a suitable secure landing site)next to big house, etc) as an engineer will appear at some point within 24hrs with a new or replacement alternator.
(I've had this problem - it was a loose alternator pillar. The red light winked on and off for a while then stayed on. Divert ensued. This could be a bigger issue over water or in remote areas. Make the radio call as soon as it happens).
For the R22 the figures are "similiar". I did once take a R22 in for maintenance with the alternator out as the second pilot on board. The J/T was 25 mins.
In all cases, minimise electrical usage. Take out the second radio/ GPS/ lights if not dark/ etc to keep amp usage down and watch the Ammeter.
Imagine trying to fly with Govenor, Horn, and both tachs out.
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A robbo battery new will last for roughly 40-50mins I think...
I presume that you are guessing that this is all after ALT failure? I have only once had a problem with ALT's and that was when I had a belt snap during flight, flew 20mins back to base with the following off:
Radio and Transponder
Nav/Strobe and Landing Lights
Gyros
If you ever get an ALT failure just load shed as much as you can!
HH
I presume that you are guessing that this is all after ALT failure? I have only once had a problem with ALT's and that was when I had a belt snap during flight, flew 20mins back to base with the following off:
Radio and Transponder
Nav/Strobe and Landing Lights
Gyros
If you ever get an ALT failure just load shed as much as you can!
HH
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The POH is 'land as soon as practicable' so you do not need to dive into the nearest field
So, land as soon as practical
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I was once told by an instructor that while bringing back a 22, the alt light came on. However the flight time was still around an hour. He flew the hour back with no problems but recommended not doing it again.
Robinson does not say how long his battery's will last, but as a few of you pointed out ' land as soon as pratical' is the wisest option.
The Tachs will still work as long as the clutch is engaged and there is life in the battery due to the tachs running off a seperate circuit.
Robinson does not say how long his battery's will last, but as a few of you pointed out ' land as soon as pratical' is the wisest option.
The Tachs will still work as long as the clutch is engaged and there is life in the battery due to the tachs running off a seperate circuit.
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In the UK some Robbo manuals have a supplement in them with an approximation of BAT life upon ALT failure. Seen a HeliAir supp in one of our Robbo POH's re BAT life.
HH
HH
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CRAZYBROADSWORD,
I don't believe that the tachs run off the mags. The governor makes adjustments in RRPM using shaft rpm (completely separate system from the tachs). I could be wrong, but there are small magnets built in that allow the governor to calculate RRPM on it's own (simple - but effective). IntheTin is correct in the fact that the tachs are on a different circuit for safety. For example, if you have an ALT failure + GOV failure... you are still good to go (but tachs won't last long on battery alone). What will happen if you lose your tachs and nothing else in a normal situation?... absolutely nothing. The governor will compensate for you and you can land safely without low RRPM or overspeeds. The need to expedite a landing is predicated on need power for other items (lights, radio, transponder, power for an emergency in-flight restart, etc).
I don't believe that the tachs run off the mags. The governor makes adjustments in RRPM using shaft rpm (completely separate system from the tachs). I could be wrong, but there are small magnets built in that allow the governor to calculate RRPM on it's own (simple - but effective). IntheTin is correct in the fact that the tachs are on a different circuit for safety. For example, if you have an ALT failure + GOV failure... you are still good to go (but tachs won't last long on battery alone). What will happen if you lose your tachs and nothing else in a normal situation?... absolutely nothing. The governor will compensate for you and you can land safely without low RRPM or overspeeds. The need to expedite a landing is predicated on need power for other items (lights, radio, transponder, power for an emergency in-flight restart, etc).
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I hope I can clear up some confusion particularly in relation to the Tachs and where they get their power from.
CrazyBS is right in that both tachs will continue to read with both the battery and the alternator off. It is wrong, though, to infer from this that the tachs are being POWERED by the magnetos. They are not.
Both tachs require power to work. They also need an input that tells them the speed. (The sensing inputs are 1. a hall effect magnetic sensor on the forward yoke of the forward flex coupling in the case of the rotor tach and 2. a connection to the right magneto in the case of the engine tach. To confuse us pilots further the right tach is on the left side of the helicopter. This is because the engine is mounted back to front compared with the way it is generally used in fixed wing applications.)
The power to the tachs with the alternator and battery master both off comes from a "tach bypass circuit". This is a direct link from the battery to the tachometer bus. So-- switch the alternator off and then switch the battery off and you'll still have power to the tachs. You WILL lose the governor and the Low RRPM warning horn.
This is handy if you've got an electrical fire in flight when you need to stop electrical power getting to the panel but need the tachs to get down.
To prevent the battery from going flat while the aircraft is sat in the hangar the tach bypass circuit runs through the clutch switch. With the clutch switch in the "disengaged" position the bypass circuit is switched off (isn't Mr Robinson clever?). A diode in the circuit prevents electrical current travelling from the Tach Bus back to the main bus.
So with your "electrical fire in flight" scenario, you switch off the Alternator and Master Batt but keep the tachs. Only if you were then to put the clutch switch to "disengage" (or pull the tach breakers) would you lose the tachs. (But you wouldn't want to do that would you)
All this is academic if you've lost the alternator and you've flattened the battery! Hence the warnings in the POH about jump starting a machine with a dead battery. If you jump start it and then go flying before the battery has charged you are one failure away from not having a clue about your RRPM. (Unless you've got perfect pitch to judge the engine note).
Back to the original question posed by jibboo. The battery is a 25 ampere hour battery. This THEORETICALLY means that it will supply 25 amps for an hour (or 5 amps for 5 hours...or 1 amp for 25 hours...etc). In reality the voltage will be plummetting long before that time is reached. It does give you some idea of the effect of using each bit of kit on battery duration. Have a look at the rating of each breaker for a rough idea of how much current each item consumes.
Hope this helps
CrazyBS is right in that both tachs will continue to read with both the battery and the alternator off. It is wrong, though, to infer from this that the tachs are being POWERED by the magnetos. They are not.
Both tachs require power to work. They also need an input that tells them the speed. (The sensing inputs are 1. a hall effect magnetic sensor on the forward yoke of the forward flex coupling in the case of the rotor tach and 2. a connection to the right magneto in the case of the engine tach. To confuse us pilots further the right tach is on the left side of the helicopter. This is because the engine is mounted back to front compared with the way it is generally used in fixed wing applications.)
The power to the tachs with the alternator and battery master both off comes from a "tach bypass circuit". This is a direct link from the battery to the tachometer bus. So-- switch the alternator off and then switch the battery off and you'll still have power to the tachs. You WILL lose the governor and the Low RRPM warning horn.
This is handy if you've got an electrical fire in flight when you need to stop electrical power getting to the panel but need the tachs to get down.
To prevent the battery from going flat while the aircraft is sat in the hangar the tach bypass circuit runs through the clutch switch. With the clutch switch in the "disengaged" position the bypass circuit is switched off (isn't Mr Robinson clever?). A diode in the circuit prevents electrical current travelling from the Tach Bus back to the main bus.
So with your "electrical fire in flight" scenario, you switch off the Alternator and Master Batt but keep the tachs. Only if you were then to put the clutch switch to "disengage" (or pull the tach breakers) would you lose the tachs. (But you wouldn't want to do that would you)
All this is academic if you've lost the alternator and you've flattened the battery! Hence the warnings in the POH about jump starting a machine with a dead battery. If you jump start it and then go flying before the battery has charged you are one failure away from not having a clue about your RRPM. (Unless you've got perfect pitch to judge the engine note).
Back to the original question posed by jibboo. The battery is a 25 ampere hour battery. This THEORETICALLY means that it will supply 25 amps for an hour (or 5 amps for 5 hours...or 1 amp for 25 hours...etc). In reality the voltage will be plummetting long before that time is reached. It does give you some idea of the effect of using each bit of kit on battery duration. Have a look at the rating of each breaker for a rough idea of how much current each item consumes.
Hope this helps
Last edited by Figure Of Merit; 11th Mar 2005 at 10:13.
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Blade placard R22
So we all know not to pull down on the blade during preflight,
What exactly gets bent/broken if you were to pull down on it?
the static stop?
J.
What exactly gets bent/broken if you were to pull down on it?
the static stop?
J.
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R22 operating costs
Some of you may think I'm a little mad. But - I decided I wanted to get my instructor rating in the UK having never flown anything other than a toy glider.
I have operated several businesses before and after doing a bit of research concluded that the best and cheapest way to achieve my goal was to buy an R22.
This done, I am now in possession of a lovely R22 beta II with low hours.
To subsidise the thing I am being offered a leaseback by my school. Now being new to this game I have calculated my costs per hour and what it will cost to pay for the 22, but the problem is I come up short on what my school is offering me per hour and what it actually costs in my estimation to run the machine per hour.
What I would like to know is the actual cost per hour to run it, from the people who really know and operate R22's, and not from my novice calculations.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
I forgot to add I'm in the UK.
I have operated several businesses before and after doing a bit of research concluded that the best and cheapest way to achieve my goal was to buy an R22.
This done, I am now in possession of a lovely R22 beta II with low hours.
To subsidise the thing I am being offered a leaseback by my school. Now being new to this game I have calculated my costs per hour and what it will cost to pay for the 22, but the problem is I come up short on what my school is offering me per hour and what it actually costs in my estimation to run the machine per hour.
What I would like to know is the actual cost per hour to run it, from the people who really know and operate R22's, and not from my novice calculations.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
I forgot to add I'm in the UK.
Last edited by Potrot; 12th Mar 2005 at 11:01.
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I have been in a very similar position to you, I bought a refurbished R22 and used it to complete my PPL and at the same time leased it back to the school who taught me to fly.
The REAL cost per hour is impossible to calculate in advance. The organisation who sold me the R22 told me one figure, the school who leased the machine estimated another and my own calculations gave a different amount.
I believed that by leasing the helicopter to the school they would burn lots of hours and therefore bring the insurance cost per hour down.
Insurance £7K per year / 350 hrs = £20.00 per hour as apposed to my 80hrs private use per year at £87.50 per hour. What I did not realise is that the maintenance bills would be so big. When using the machine for training it really got a hammering, all those hovering auto's, auto's to the ground, run on landings, new student's trying to pull 30" MP and hours of hovering at max power. Within six months of owning my R22 I had a 6.5K maintenance bill for unscheduled work.
I lost money on every hour the machine flew, I sold the machine to the school that leased it and got an R44, and I lease this machine to the same flying school and have had much more success. Most people who fly the 44 already have there PPL and either do there type rating on it or self fly hire. The hours are much lower per year but I have had no unscheduled maintenance in nearly two years.
Hope this helps
PM me if you want to know more figures.
The REAL cost per hour is impossible to calculate in advance. The organisation who sold me the R22 told me one figure, the school who leased the machine estimated another and my own calculations gave a different amount.
I believed that by leasing the helicopter to the school they would burn lots of hours and therefore bring the insurance cost per hour down.
Insurance £7K per year / 350 hrs = £20.00 per hour as apposed to my 80hrs private use per year at £87.50 per hour. What I did not realise is that the maintenance bills would be so big. When using the machine for training it really got a hammering, all those hovering auto's, auto's to the ground, run on landings, new student's trying to pull 30" MP and hours of hovering at max power. Within six months of owning my R22 I had a 6.5K maintenance bill for unscheduled work.
I lost money on every hour the machine flew, I sold the machine to the school that leased it and got an R44, and I lease this machine to the same flying school and have had much more success. Most people who fly the 44 already have there PPL and either do there type rating on it or self fly hire. The hours are much lower per year but I have had no unscheduled maintenance in nearly two years.
Hope this helps
PM me if you want to know more figures.
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ive not had a r22 but have owned others and leased them to flying schools [one in yorkshire with a flying school that did not pay ,falsified hours,and badly treated the helicopter ect,]
what i would say is before picking the school ask a few questions
some below
how many aircraft has the school damaged latley
ask the other owners who lease their helicopters to the school do they get paid on time ,do the hours match up to the students flying times,
find out who also has leased helicopters to this school in the past and ask them if they have had problems
ask if they have they had any serious accidents and is there a trend to them
is the school run by competent people ,have they proper comercial licences /instructor ratings ect.
please dont get bitten like i did there are lots of proffesional outfits out there that do a good job .and only a few bad ones ,
most dont flout the laws but some do .
i dont think its fair to name names but my one was at a airfield with no competitors hes managed to stab all of them in the back already
nuff said
what i would say is before picking the school ask a few questions
some below
how many aircraft has the school damaged latley
ask the other owners who lease their helicopters to the school do they get paid on time ,do the hours match up to the students flying times,
find out who also has leased helicopters to this school in the past and ask them if they have had problems
ask if they have they had any serious accidents and is there a trend to them
is the school run by competent people ,have they proper comercial licences /instructor ratings ect.
please dont get bitten like i did there are lots of proffesional outfits out there that do a good job .and only a few bad ones ,
most dont flout the laws but some do .
i dont think its fair to name names but my one was at a airfield with no competitors hes managed to stab all of them in the back already
nuff said