US Presidential Helicopter Bid (and Result)
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Now that the yanks have bought Merlin I suppose the Mk1 can kiss goodbye to it's long awaited spares as Agusta/Westlands will be bending over backwards to please it's new best friend !!!
VXX
Nick,
My sincerest condolences about the result of the competition. I have always been an admirer of the S-92, both from a technical and a program standpoint and I am absolutely convinced that it is a better helicopter than the EH101.
I like a number of other contributors believe that Sikorsky has been plopped-on from a great height so that George could say thank you to Tony. In the end it was nothing to do with helicopters, technology, engineering or fitness for purpose (in the broadest sense). It came down to politics.
Hold you head up high though; the S-92 is a fine machine and will dominate the civil and military markets for years to come. In a real competition, without political bias, the S-92 will win hands down, every time and the future will show this. Whatever you do, don’t take it personally. I think the decision for this contract was made a long time ago and nothing anyone at Sikorsky said or did would have made any difference.
Best Wishes,
CRAN
Team US-101,
Well done, I know this certainly couldn't have come at a better time for Westland and Yeovil. Now make hay while the sun shines…
CRAN
My sincerest condolences about the result of the competition. I have always been an admirer of the S-92, both from a technical and a program standpoint and I am absolutely convinced that it is a better helicopter than the EH101.
I like a number of other contributors believe that Sikorsky has been plopped-on from a great height so that George could say thank you to Tony. In the end it was nothing to do with helicopters, technology, engineering or fitness for purpose (in the broadest sense). It came down to politics.
Hold you head up high though; the S-92 is a fine machine and will dominate the civil and military markets for years to come. In a real competition, without political bias, the S-92 will win hands down, every time and the future will show this. Whatever you do, don’t take it personally. I think the decision for this contract was made a long time ago and nothing anyone at Sikorsky said or did would have made any difference.
Best Wishes,
CRAN
Team US-101,
Well done, I know this certainly couldn't have come at a better time for Westland and Yeovil. Now make hay while the sun shines…
CRAN
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I geuss the next question is - what about the other US contracts?
Was this purely payback for support during the war (thanks for your support, heres a contract for 23, but dont even think you'll get anything else, its not American enough) or does the Merlin really stand a chance??
Was this purely payback for support during the war (thanks for your support, heres a contract for 23, but dont even think you'll get anything else, its not American enough) or does the Merlin really stand a chance??
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Cran,
Why don't you sit back and see what envolves with the 92 and 101.
As I stated in a previos post, where would the 76 be nowadays if it wasn't for Bond and Lloyds, they made the 76 into the aircraft it is today, not Sikorsky.
Why don't you sit back and see what envolves with the 92 and 101.
As I stated in a previos post, where would the 76 be nowadays if it wasn't for Bond and Lloyds, they made the 76 into the aircraft it is today, not Sikorsky.
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Shawn,
Well said... well said, indeed. There have been a LOT of harsh comments made during this thread, from both sides of the isle. Hip, hip, hooray for Nick's professionalism during the banter. In reviewing some of the previous posts, it's clear that many preconceptions were a bit off...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&pagenumber=12
Well said... well said, indeed. There have been a LOT of harsh comments made during this thread, from both sides of the isle. Hip, hip, hooray for Nick's professionalism during the banter. In reviewing some of the previous posts, it's clear that many preconceptions were a bit off...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&pagenumber=12
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It will be interesting to see Canada's reaction having just ordered a whole fleet of Sikhorsky H92's. It seems that Canada is the only Military customer right now. Good news for the Merlin though!
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Fantastic news and a sincere congratulartions to the Guys at WHL. Thoroughly deserved. The right aircraft at the right price. Well done all concerned.
Now hopefully they can win the order for F.Lynx and the future of Britains helicopter industry will be assured.
Now hopefully they can win the order for F.Lynx and the future of Britains helicopter industry will be assured.
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Well, now that I have overcome the crash of my computer and the whack in the head from the US navy, I can post!
While I am surely disappointed, I am not embittered, since it would do no good! Pilots, perhaps more than most types of folks, are realists, since one learns fairly early on that arguing with the oil pressure gauge will not make the ground slow its onrush! We deal with it, and march on.
Things I do know as fact, not just as opinion:
1) The S-92 (H-92) carries more and goes farther than the EH-101, with today's engines or tomorrow's.
2) The safety standard of the two is separated by a full generation of helicopter technology
3) The selection was based on many factors, perhaps many that have little to so with helicopters.
4) My customer has spoken, and (like that oil pressure gauge) he speaks compellingly.
There are many battles in the future, the history of any product is not written by one selection.
Tynecastle, I must disagree with your statement that somehow two Brit operators "made" the S-76. If you are saying that the 76 is better than it ever was, I agree, and if you are saying that it was influenced by professonals who fly it and help spec it out I agree. If you think those two companies have cornered the market on brilliance, I have a very nice bridge across the Hudson River, one owner, few miles, that I would like to sell you!
To all ppruners:
You are a great bunch, thanks for the support, for the understanding and for the merciful use of small rapiers!
While I am surely disappointed, I am not embittered, since it would do no good! Pilots, perhaps more than most types of folks, are realists, since one learns fairly early on that arguing with the oil pressure gauge will not make the ground slow its onrush! We deal with it, and march on.
Things I do know as fact, not just as opinion:
1) The S-92 (H-92) carries more and goes farther than the EH-101, with today's engines or tomorrow's.
2) The safety standard of the two is separated by a full generation of helicopter technology
3) The selection was based on many factors, perhaps many that have little to so with helicopters.
4) My customer has spoken, and (like that oil pressure gauge) he speaks compellingly.
There are many battles in the future, the history of any product is not written by one selection.
Tynecastle, I must disagree with your statement that somehow two Brit operators "made" the S-76. If you are saying that the 76 is better than it ever was, I agree, and if you are saying that it was influenced by professonals who fly it and help spec it out I agree. If you think those two companies have cornered the market on brilliance, I have a very nice bridge across the Hudson River, one owner, few miles, that I would like to sell you!
To all ppruners:
You are a great bunch, thanks for the support, for the understanding and for the merciful use of small rapiers!
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Unbiased Opinon (Mexico)
From an unbiased point of view . . . .
1.- If the competition was based on looks, they made the right choice.
2.- I understand that politics were certainly an issue here, but I refuse to think that they would be willing to compromise the safety of one of the most important figures in the world by choosing the "next safer machine" just to please their friends.
3.- Hey they brought the S92 here a few days ago to show President Fox and he really liked it, loose some Presidents, win some presidents.
(He currently uses Super Pumas)
Congratulations to both teams for developing such great technology!
1.- If the competition was based on looks, they made the right choice.
2.- I understand that politics were certainly an issue here, but I refuse to think that they would be willing to compromise the safety of one of the most important figures in the world by choosing the "next safer machine" just to please their friends.
3.- Hey they brought the S92 here a few days ago to show President Fox and he really liked it, loose some Presidents, win some presidents.
(He currently uses Super Pumas)Congratulations to both teams for developing such great technology!
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Thanks to Nick for giving us the inside line into the contest over the last year, and for his professionalism. Better luck in Round 2: PRV, and I hope Connecticut somehow manages to survive the coming 'lean' years on 2,000 UH-60Ms, MH-60Ms, MH-60Rs and MH-60S...!
Good luck to the guys in Owego with the US101. You've got to guess that LM's broad off-board 'homeland security' systems offerings must have played a part in this unexpected result. Here's to hoping that the wider EH101 program benefits from the infusion of US funding.
I/C
Good luck to the guys in Owego with the US101. You've got to guess that LM's broad off-board 'homeland security' systems offerings must have played a part in this unexpected result. Here's to hoping that the wider EH101 program benefits from the infusion of US funding.
I/C
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What is really going to bug me in the next few years, i think...
Is the fact that even if the selectors based their decision on which aircraft best suited the mission and requirments- some one will say that it was politically motivated...
if the S92 had won the same equally would have been said too.
I'm sure that they are both good aircraft, in their own way and I'm sure that both teams worked really hard to win the contest fairly and squarely.
As an aside I reckon every government in the world practises protectionism sometimes- after all, the voters want jobs and governments want voters.
Still, we've bought plenty of US aircraft in the past and the US have bought some British ones too...
Is the fact that even if the selectors based their decision on which aircraft best suited the mission and requirments- some one will say that it was politically motivated...
if the S92 had won the same equally would have been said too.
I'm sure that they are both good aircraft, in their own way and I'm sure that both teams worked really hard to win the contest fairly and squarely.
As an aside I reckon every government in the world practises protectionism sometimes- after all, the voters want jobs and governments want voters.
Still, we've bought plenty of US aircraft in the past and the US have bought some British ones too...
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Well the best helicopter by far won - Congrats all round to Lockheed, AgustaWestland, Bell etc
Just maybe the Navy evaluation taken team weren't taken in by the Sikorsky claims that the S-92 is "the world's safest helicopter", "carries more and goes farther", " whole generation ahead" etc.
Sounds to me like the greater payload and larger cabin of the US101 were significant factors in its favour.
BK
Just maybe the Navy evaluation taken team weren't taken in by the Sikorsky claims that the S-92 is "the world's safest helicopter", "carries more and goes farther", " whole generation ahead" etc.
Sounds to me like the greater payload and larger cabin of the US101 were significant factors in its favour.
BK
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On a lighter note, but still on topic; maybe. 
Many year ago at a Club Med they had a contest. It consisted of folding a sheet of paper in to a glider. The contestants then launched their gliders from a second floor walkway. The person who produced the glider that had the longest flight-time won. The prize was probable a free drink at the bar.
I had been at the bar long before the great fly-off, 'cause when my turn came I just held out the unfolded sheet and let it go. It's hang-time was 2-1/2 times that of any other 'glider'.
When I went to claim the well deserved prize, they refused to give it to me. Is this an example of politics overriding aerodynamics?
Many year ago at a Club Med they had a contest. It consisted of folding a sheet of paper in to a glider. The contestants then launched their gliders from a second floor walkway. The person who produced the glider that had the longest flight-time won. The prize was probable a free drink at the bar.
I had been at the bar long before the great fly-off, 'cause when my turn came I just held out the unfolded sheet and let it go. It's hang-time was 2-1/2 times that of any other 'glider'.
When I went to claim the well deserved prize, they refused to give it to me. Is this an example of politics overriding aerodynamics?
Last edited by Dave_Jackson; 29th Jan 2005 at 23:57.
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Anyone who thinks politics plays no role in these things is incredibly naive.
And congrats Nick on a largely graceful loser's speech. A congrats to the winners wouldn't have hurt but hey. . .
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Nick,
Just to say thanks for a wonderful competition and I was really shocked when I heard the news.
I am convinced that the S-92 is a great helicopter and we will do battle again over the next couple of years in other competitions.
All aircraft have to have competitors as if they do not the design will stay constant and safety will be compromised. The US101 will be a better and safer machine that the EH101, not because of the on-going design activities but by the line that the S-92 has draw in the sand. All of us have match it or walk away from the industry.
Good luck for the future with your aircraft from one professional to another.
Just to say thanks for a wonderful competition and I was really shocked when I heard the news.
I am convinced that the S-92 is a great helicopter and we will do battle again over the next couple of years in other competitions.
All aircraft have to have competitors as if they do not the design will stay constant and safety will be compromised. The US101 will be a better and safer machine that the EH101, not because of the on-going design activities but by the line that the S-92 has draw in the sand. All of us have match it or walk away from the industry.
Good luck for the future with your aircraft from one professional to another.
I think this is a great discision and I can't see it being motivated by politics at all. The US101 is an excellent helicopter, with a lot of power and plenty of space. Just what is required for Marine 1. The fact that is costs a fortune to run and is so large, may put off commercial operators, but for this sort of application, or for the Military, it is perfect.
What's more, you can't put the most powerful man in the world (certain amount of tongue-in-cheek required) in a totally unproven helicopter. Yes, the 101 has had its share of problems, but at least they are known about and there are tens of thousands of flights hours behind it. Not so the S-92 despite what Sikorski sales pitch will tell you. Having 5,000 hrs across 5 airframes, is not the same as having 5,000 hours on one airframe.
Well done to the 101 and may this contract be the source of many more orders.
What's more, you can't put the most powerful man in the world (certain amount of tongue-in-cheek required) in a totally unproven helicopter. Yes, the 101 has had its share of problems, but at least they are known about and there are tens of thousands of flights hours behind it. Not so the S-92 despite what Sikorski sales pitch will tell you. Having 5,000 hrs across 5 airframes, is not the same as having 5,000 hours on one airframe.
Well done to the 101 and may this contract be the source of many more orders.