Gaining Experience - ?
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Gaining Experience - ?
Those annoyed by wannabes stop reading now!!!
Those who are happy to offer something to a low-timer read on...
As I understand it:
Having jumped through all the UK hoops (CPL(H) + instructor ticket) you have approx 300hrsTT. If you are fortunate enough to get work I believe the only flying you are likely to be doing is trial lessons until your experience (hours) has risen considerabley.
So I ask:
What is it (and I am in no way suggesting that it is nothing) that you learn by doing trial lessons ad nauseum?
Am I being naive (more than likely!) in thinking one trial lesson is pretty much the same as another with little learned in terms of commercial flying?
Your hours go up but does your experience? Are you now deemed a more safe pilot suitable for other operations just from doing trial lessons (or other parts of the PPL(H) syllabus)?
In summary:
What do you learn in the early stages of your career under the system described above?
There are no rhetorical questions - just those of a curious low-timer wannabe looking to soak up as much infomation/opinion as possible!
I would really like to hear of peoples tales of going from wannabe to working pilot... Anyone? Anyone?
Cheers.
Those who are happy to offer something to a low-timer read on...
As I understand it:
Having jumped through all the UK hoops (CPL(H) + instructor ticket) you have approx 300hrsTT. If you are fortunate enough to get work I believe the only flying you are likely to be doing is trial lessons until your experience (hours) has risen considerabley.
So I ask:
What is it (and I am in no way suggesting that it is nothing) that you learn by doing trial lessons ad nauseum?
Am I being naive (more than likely!) in thinking one trial lesson is pretty much the same as another with little learned in terms of commercial flying?
Your hours go up but does your experience? Are you now deemed a more safe pilot suitable for other operations just from doing trial lessons (or other parts of the PPL(H) syllabus)?
In summary:
What do you learn in the early stages of your career under the system described above?
There are no rhetorical questions - just those of a curious low-timer wannabe looking to soak up as much infomation/opinion as possible!
I would really like to hear of peoples tales of going from wannabe to working pilot... Anyone? Anyone?
Cheers.
Join Date: Aug 2004
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MPD, I can't comment on the UK system but I went abroad to get my PPL, stayed for my CPL, and ended up working over here (South Africa). I think a lot of guys build their hours instructing in the USA too.
What's the deal in the UK? Why can you only do trial lessons? Can't you even do photography? Do you have a R44 rating? Is it an insurance thing?
What's the deal in the UK? Why can you only do trial lessons? Can't you even do photography? Do you have a R44 rating? Is it an insurance thing?
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Cheers Leftpedal.
As I understand it it is mainly to do with insurance. I guess the insurance companies some way to say who they will and won't insure and hours is the only way i s'pose.
As for only being allowed to do trial lessons no rule is in force but it is, I gather, just how things are done...
Dunno...
I stand to be corrected.
As I understand it it is mainly to do with insurance. I guess the insurance companies some way to say who they will and won't insure and hours is the only way i s'pose.
As for only being allowed to do trial lessons no rule is in force but it is, I gather, just how things are done...
Dunno...
I stand to be corrected.
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MDP,
I was in the same position that you are now five years ago.
I started work at a busy flying school and as a result the two other instructors were busy with their own ppl students, so I got most of the trial lessons, on the basis that any potential students were mine.
I thoroughly enjoyed trial lessons and learnt an awful lot - and learnt that there is an awful lot more to learn as well. Don't fall into the trap of believing that a CPL is the end of pilot training - it is only the begining.
The trial lesson is about the only part of the course where the instructor does a significant amount of poleing and it is were I really learnt how to fly AND captain an aircraft. More importantly, it is a great buzz giving someone the opportunity to do something they have always dreamed of.
I have been lucky enough to get my dream job as a commercial pilot, but only fly 250 hours a year. I would love to continue teaching trial lessons but alas I cannot even keep current on a Robbie, let alone teach on one.
Best of luck and enjoy it.
I was in the same position that you are now five years ago.
I started work at a busy flying school and as a result the two other instructors were busy with their own ppl students, so I got most of the trial lessons, on the basis that any potential students were mine.
I thoroughly enjoyed trial lessons and learnt an awful lot - and learnt that there is an awful lot more to learn as well. Don't fall into the trap of believing that a CPL is the end of pilot training - it is only the begining.
The trial lesson is about the only part of the course where the instructor does a significant amount of poleing and it is were I really learnt how to fly AND captain an aircraft. More importantly, it is a great buzz giving someone the opportunity to do something they have always dreamed of.
I have been lucky enough to get my dream job as a commercial pilot, but only fly 250 hours a year. I would love to continue teaching trial lessons but alas I cannot even keep current on a Robbie, let alone teach on one.
Best of luck and enjoy it.
Better red than ...
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MPD,
I suppose another option is to get hooked up with a commercial operator that does pleasure flights etc and offer services to them at certain times gratis (ie you do not get paid) but you would build turbine hours doing commercial work.
On the trial lessons etc, how about tie up a deal with a FS that you go and pitch for work and any inbound work from that campaign is yours to teach thru' to PPL (H) std under supervison.
The former adds hours and specific experience but partly on your terms. The latter would bring in some cash and be a broader range of experience towards the "sent 25 solo" standard.
Just ideas. May be helpful, maybe not.
h-r
I suppose another option is to get hooked up with a commercial operator that does pleasure flights etc and offer services to them at certain times gratis (ie you do not get paid) but you would build turbine hours doing commercial work.
On the trial lessons etc, how about tie up a deal with a FS that you go and pitch for work and any inbound work from that campaign is yours to teach thru' to PPL (H) std under supervison.
The former adds hours and specific experience but partly on your terms. The latter would bring in some cash and be a broader range of experience towards the "sent 25 solo" standard.
Just ideas. May be helpful, maybe not.
h-r
Senis Semper Fidelis
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MPD,
Patience is a virtue, Seldom found in women, never found in men!
You have to look at it from the operators point of view, would you let a low houred pilot who is chomping at the bit, loose in possibly £1 point something mil's worth of kit,
I wont even let a driver near any tractive units untill they have at least 2 FULL years of driving under their belt in that range of tractor, and they seldom leave the ground!!
Patience Man, your rewards will come but you will have to kiss many frog's in between time
Vfr
Patience is a virtue, Seldom found in women, never found in men!
You have to look at it from the operators point of view, would you let a low houred pilot who is chomping at the bit, loose in possibly £1 point something mil's worth of kit,
I wont even let a driver near any tractive units untill they have at least 2 FULL years of driving under their belt in that range of tractor, and they seldom leave the ground!!
Patience Man, your rewards will come but you will have to kiss many frog's in between time
Vfr
Better red than ...
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I think that is a very negative response to a genuine attempt to be helpful with a real situation.
NB other people do it because its the only way to get a certain type of experience. Similiar approaches are used to develop experience in employment outside of aviation as well.
NB other people do it because its the only way to get a certain type of experience. Similiar approaches are used to develop experience in employment outside of aviation as well.
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redeye,
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. MDP has just spent over £50k getting his bits of paper - he has a right to get paid for his flying. Note he is also a commercial ie professional pilot. I would hope that he has some professional pride and acknowledge that his hard earned license entitles him to pay. Unfortunately there are those who seem to have no pride and insult themselves and their industry by working for nothing.
When I started I was told that there was no chance of getting any commercial work until you had at least 1000 hrs. Whether that is still true, I don't know, but it seems to be a good benchmark to set your aspirations by.
Go instructing and enjoy it.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. MDP has just spent over £50k getting his bits of paper - he has a right to get paid for his flying. Note he is also a commercial ie professional pilot. I would hope that he has some professional pride and acknowledge that his hard earned license entitles him to pay. Unfortunately there are those who seem to have no pride and insult themselves and their industry by working for nothing.
When I started I was told that there was no chance of getting any commercial work until you had at least 1000 hrs. Whether that is still true, I don't know, but it seems to be a good benchmark to set your aspirations by.
Go instructing and enjoy it.
Better red than ...
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I not certain that it is a "..right.." old chap. Supply and demand (and profit) comes into the mix as well.
Some parts of a journey can be hard but get you to the destination you were aiming for.
h-r
Some parts of a journey can be hard but get you to the destination you were aiming for.
h-r
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What's wrong with accepting a pay which commensurates with experience? This is a way to compensate for the increased cost (insurance, training, supervision etc) which the operator needs to accept. I see no reason why the more experienced drivers should subsidize a colleague which is less profitable.
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Redeye I have to agree with KMS. working for no pay does no one in the industry any good at all. Believe me when I was starting out I was very very tempted to try this route but held out for paid work and got it in the end. Now I have the experience and the pay to go with it.
In the fixed wing arena they have made the mistake of working for free and even paying for their own heavy metal type ratings. The trouble now is that it is fast becoming standard in order to get a job for you to pay for the rating or the job will go to someone else who has.
Imagine you have just spent the last couple of years studying like mad for your exams, paid for your PPL and hours building plus cpl flight course. You go for a job and don't get it because someone else is doing it for free. or maybe you are ten years into your flying and you find that your work and pay have been cut due to someone flying the easier tasks for free. not a lot of fun for you.
Plus don't think that once you have experience you will go from being a free member of staff to a paid one. That type of company will just replace you with another new pilot who will work for free for a while. I have nothing against getting free flying but not if it is at the expense of a fellow pilots wage packet.... one day hopefully that fellow pilot will be you. There are ways to get free flying that are not at others expense if you are lucky and willing to work for it.
Sorry MPD rant over...
as to the original point of the thread then yes there is an awful lot that you can learn from trial lessons especially if you let them have the controls for as much of the flight as you can......and remember never trust a student they are all trying to kill you. It is normally your "good" student who you relax with and then catches you out. Trial lessons are a great way to learn how to judge people and how they behave and it is always fun to see how much they enjoy it.
Good luck with the flying
In the fixed wing arena they have made the mistake of working for free and even paying for their own heavy metal type ratings. The trouble now is that it is fast becoming standard in order to get a job for you to pay for the rating or the job will go to someone else who has.
Imagine you have just spent the last couple of years studying like mad for your exams, paid for your PPL and hours building plus cpl flight course. You go for a job and don't get it because someone else is doing it for free. or maybe you are ten years into your flying and you find that your work and pay have been cut due to someone flying the easier tasks for free. not a lot of fun for you.
Plus don't think that once you have experience you will go from being a free member of staff to a paid one. That type of company will just replace you with another new pilot who will work for free for a while. I have nothing against getting free flying but not if it is at the expense of a fellow pilots wage packet.... one day hopefully that fellow pilot will be you. There are ways to get free flying that are not at others expense if you are lucky and willing to work for it.
Sorry MPD rant over...
as to the original point of the thread then yes there is an awful lot that you can learn from trial lessons especially if you let them have the controls for as much of the flight as you can......and remember never trust a student they are all trying to kill you. It is normally your "good" student who you relax with and then catches you out. Trial lessons are a great way to learn how to judge people and how they behave and it is always fun to see how much they enjoy it.
Good luck with the flying
Hovering AND talking
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you will have to kiss many frog's in between time
Cheers
Whirlygig........... after too much red wine
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I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. MDP has just spent over £50k getting his bits of paper - he has a right to get paid for his flying. Note he is also a commercial ie professional pilot.
Each country is a little different with their standards of first job but the bottom line is there is few paying jobs out there for many fresh licences so what else is one to do...? Let their 50K go to waste because they refuse to accept work for little or no reward - to get experience that they need to get ahead.
Get real...!! A year goes quickly and if it takes a year or two to gain that all important experience - whatever way you get it, DO IT...!! No one is going to give you applause and accolades for knocking a job back because they were going to pay you peanuts or not pay you at all. Consider the experience payment enough.
Alot of 'professionals' have gone that route but it unfortunately is just the way it is. If you want a future you have to start somewhere.
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MPD
First of all be carefull there are a lot of trial lessson students out there who will probably have a good go at killing you, don't get complacent.
You have to start somewhere, by getting that first work, regardless of the quality and pay is an achievement. This is your ticket into a small industry where most of the people will know or have heard about everybody else. With a bit of luck and hard graft you'll meet the contacts and get yourself the next job and then that progressive rise to the job you want, and not forgetting the pay you want.
Good Luck and fly safe students must be handled with kid gloves they are dangerous.
First of all be carefull there are a lot of trial lessson students out there who will probably have a good go at killing you, don't get complacent.
You have to start somewhere, by getting that first work, regardless of the quality and pay is an achievement. This is your ticket into a small industry where most of the people will know or have heard about everybody else. With a bit of luck and hard graft you'll meet the contacts and get yourself the next job and then that progressive rise to the job you want, and not forgetting the pay you want.
Good Luck and fly safe students must be handled with kid gloves they are dangerous.
The Original Whirly
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I'm a newish instructor doing mainly trial lessons. Are they all the same? Most definitely NO!!!!! Here's a rough sample, and they've all happened:
1) He/she doesn't really want to take control, so you get to practise absolutely anything you like. Though if they're nervous, don't overdo the fancy stuff.
2) He's desperate to fly, but totally clumsy and cack-handed, and you need faster reactions than you ever believed possible.
3) He didn't tell you he's a f/w pilot and has had a few unofficial goes at flying a helicopter before. He picks it all up extremely fast, quickly gets bored with flying straight and level, and you find yourself teaching and demonstrating a whole bunch of stuff you hadn't prepared.
4) He's read a lot, heard all about autos, vortex ring, and so on, and would like everything demonstrated, please. And he'll ask questions non-stop while you're doing it, and expect instant answers.
5) He's the model student, does it all as you would expect, and at the rate you would expect, behaving exactly as you were told on the course that students would. Er...it may be wishful thinking, but I think I had one of these....once!
6) He's absolutely plain bloody terrified, and wants to get back on terra firma ASAP if not faster. You talk to ATC, try to calm him down, and keep an eye on what his hands might do in case he freaks out, while wanting to get down smoothly and slowly, as an auto is hardly appropriate as it will scare him more. Only had this happen once, but I am fairly new!
I'm sure there are loads more. This is in my first 30 or so instructing hours, as I'm only part time, and most of them are half an hour or less, so it takes a lot of time to get many hours. But am I getting experience? Well, what do YOU think?
1) He/she doesn't really want to take control, so you get to practise absolutely anything you like. Though if they're nervous, don't overdo the fancy stuff.
2) He's desperate to fly, but totally clumsy and cack-handed, and you need faster reactions than you ever believed possible.
3) He didn't tell you he's a f/w pilot and has had a few unofficial goes at flying a helicopter before. He picks it all up extremely fast, quickly gets bored with flying straight and level, and you find yourself teaching and demonstrating a whole bunch of stuff you hadn't prepared.
4) He's read a lot, heard all about autos, vortex ring, and so on, and would like everything demonstrated, please. And he'll ask questions non-stop while you're doing it, and expect instant answers.
5) He's the model student, does it all as you would expect, and at the rate you would expect, behaving exactly as you were told on the course that students would. Er...it may be wishful thinking, but I think I had one of these....once!
6) He's absolutely plain bloody terrified, and wants to get back on terra firma ASAP if not faster. You talk to ATC, try to calm him down, and keep an eye on what his hands might do in case he freaks out, while wanting to get down smoothly and slowly, as an auto is hardly appropriate as it will scare him more. Only had this happen once, but I am fairly new!
I'm sure there are loads more. This is in my first 30 or so instructing hours, as I'm only part time, and most of them are half an hour or less, so it takes a lot of time to get many hours. But am I getting experience? Well, what do YOU think?
