Agusta A109

[John Eacott]

Have a,. .. .Linfox have an Agusta A119 Koala, VH-FOX, not a 109E. There are no Powers in Australia (yet?).

[flygunz]

A119 koala - Vibration problems

Any koala drivers out there had any experiences of low freq vibs at varying airspeeds. If so, would appreciate any feedback as to causes.

Thanks

[Heli-Ops]

Talk to Careflight in Sydney, Australia. They had major problems with the tail rotor of their aircraft and actually self imposed a grounding of it last year until Agusta sorted it out. Aparently they had to change the tail rotor blades. let me know if you want contact details for them.

Heli Ops

[Driptray]

Send me an email, and we can talk about your problems.

Driptray

[Heli-Ops]

MK is dat u.

[flygunz]

Thanks, i would appreciate the careflight address. the tail rotor issue was dealt with by new composite t/r blades which i have fitted. I would be suprised if they were producing a low freq vibe but concious of history.
At the moment koalas are on a 10 hr inspection for the FCU, its conceivable that may be the cause.
Driptray-email address on its way.
Thanks so far.
MK, not me.

[mickinst]

Flygunz,

Would appreciate the opprtunity to help if required. Pls email me with a more detailed description of the fault if you could. i.e any fluctuating indications accompanying the low freq vibe? etc.

Mickinst

[StevieTerrier]

Agusta 109 question(s)

Can any of you knowledgeable people out there give me a potted history of the 109 lineage regarding model types and relevant merits of same? Just a brief "109C - can carry 4 pax but no fuel, replaced by 109Cplus GT turbo etc " would be great.

Cheers!

[Straight Up]

This table may help.....

http://www.sloanehelicopters.com/a109comp.htm


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[Stinger]

It is always an interesting execise to compare these kinds of statistics, and they often vary between the sales agent and the operator. I would say treat the above as generally fairly optimistic.

You will also have to recalculate some of the figures due to minor errors in the table - for e.g. all 109s (prior to the E model) have a basic fuel capacity of 420kgs (give or take a kg or 2). The II and the C have the option of an aux tank of capacity 120kgs, giving a total of 540 kgs on these aircraft - so delete any reference to 566 or 581kgs of fuel.

Not sure what a 'block speed' is in helicopters - but 145, possibly 150kts is balls to the wall for any 109, and is weight/conditions dependent. I would not plan any faster than 140 cruise.

So, take the 109C for example - I would offer the following figures: (with the table figures in brackets)

Max Gross: (2720) 2720 kgs
Empty Weight: (1900) 1950 would be nearer the average, so:
Useful Load: (820) 770 kgs
Max fuel weight: (581) 540 kgs - with aux tank
Payload with full fuel: (239) 230 - pilot + 1.5 pax
Fuel consuption: (185) 200 !! - you might get a kilo or 2 less at altitude - but don't bet your granny on it.
So, endurance with full fuel: (2:45) 2:00 hours only, which gives a range of 290 nm - at 145kts (not 407 nm). Naturally it does depend slightly on your calculation of 'VFR reserves'. I also have a personal in-flight minimum of 50kgs a side.

The 'A' model works out at around 1:45 endurance (no aux tank) for a range of 250nm, with pilot +3. A+ is 2:15 hours, 330nm, pilot +1. The 109E Power will fly for 2:45, 415nm with pilot +1. A Power in the real world weighs nearer 2000kgs than the 1870 in the table.

Notwithstanding the above, there is no better helicopter, if you need to move a small number of people, up to 200nm, in the shortest time, resonable comfort, any weather day or night - AND it is the best looking machine in the air.

[John Eacott]

Stinger's summary is fairly right, but I would query the fuel burn. 200lt/hr maybe, but not 200kg/hr. I consistently returned 135-140kg/hr fuel burn on a 109AII that I have operated for the past 8 years, which reduced to 130kg/hr at altitude (8000ft +) on long trips. Normal cruise was 135TAS, cruise Tq 90%. Our empty weight of a heavy corporate ship with air con., is 1830kg, mauw 2600kg. With the boot tank full (trick to overfill, turn on the boost pumps whilst filling the boot tank, the TMLF will pump fuel back into the mains & gain about 20kg per side. Don't undo the main tank fuel caps, though, as the fuel level will be up above the fill point!) the pax weight available is 110kg, allowing for an 80kg pilot. Watch the aft cg, though.......

I have found that the C model, with it's recalibrated Tq gauge, seems to encourage a higher cruise Tq, with a higher cruise TAS & fuel burn.

Whilst a fun little rocket ship, don't plan on long trips if you're over 5' 11", unless you are into self inflicted pain & mutilation

[StevieTerrier]

Thanks very much guys - very useful information. Pretty much confirms what I heard - fast, pretty but don't plan on taking too many people too far. I had believed (probably been talking to too many distributors...) that the 109 Power was a fill it up with fuel, pax and baggage and fly all day type of machine. Perhaps I was a tad gullible there!

Stinger - I have to presume you weren't including the Bell 222 in your musings when you said the 109 was the best looking machine in the air?????

Cheers, ST

[RotorHorn]

JE,
Stingers A109 Power fuel consumption figures are about right.

220Kg/hr (with air con on) i.e. 110kg/hr per engine
200-210kg/hr without air con on!

Vne = 160-162kn with cruise somewhere around 135-140kn

Max weight 2850kg

Full fuel and 3 pax is within limits, but more pax means less fuel.....

Italian Helicopters just like Italian bikes - lovely to look at, great to drive, but the build quality is sometimes a little worrying - heard of a couple of A109 Powers (one an elite) having such thin paint jobs that you could see the primer through the top coat....

[edited 'cos a kant spel]

[Heliport]

Agusta 109 crashes - Is the design fatally flawed?

qmark posted the following question on another thread following the crash in Greece earlier this week. That thread now contains condolences and tributes to the pilot who died, and we know nothing about the cause of that particular accident, so I thought it was better to start a separate thread for a more general discussion.

" ..... Can't help thinking about all the 109's that have crashed over the last few years - still flying with a scissor link that can be fitted backwards - 2 have crashed in the UK (operated by Sloanes) and whilst Agusta have made changes to the maintenance manual the part remains the same !!!
The first Greek one crashed into the sea - so no confirmed outcome.
Does anyone out there care that this problem MAY still exist?
I don't wish to begin false or dramatic rumors but keep reading about 109 crashes and no change to this crucial part is not good for the soul.
Interested what anyone else may think?

[Heliport]

Blender Pilot responded ..........


qmark,
Lots of things can be installed backwards on helicopters, just yesterday I flew an L4 with the lift links/transmision supports installed backwards! Sure freaked out when I realized it! I have also seen bolts on pitch links, blade retaining bolts, and even T/R control cables on a Lama! Unfortunately this things happen way too often everywhere, and my advice is to be extra careful and check everything really good after the helicopter has been put back together!

About a year ago, they were making a runup on a Jet Ranger after an overhaul when the rotor head flew off and landed 1800 meters away on top of a school! Somebody forgot to tighten/install the "jesus nut"! Who would you blame the mechanics or the pilot?

[SASless]

Sometimes it helps to look over the machine when it comes out of maintenance....engineers are human too, right? The thought of the m/r not being secured as described indicts the engineer, the engineer that did the duplicate inspection, the Quality Assurance Program, the pilot.....everyone involved.

Now at a very cold place in the US....with a helicopter company that has a very short name...preflighted a 212 for the morning flight to discover a tail rotor pitch change link dangling lose on one end. Was a bit surprised, afterall it had been inspected, test flown and released for flying by the base manager and lead mechanic, following a tail rotor change. They couldn't understand my bellicose description of what I thought of them, their standards, and their veracity....the company wasn't impressed either until I suggested a federal agency with an equally short name might be interested.

It never hurts to double check what you can.....

[qmark]

Thanks Blender Pilot - Scarey !!!
But I think you will find that in UK for an aircraft to be given a CofA it must have no part of the control run able to be fit backwards, and all such parts should be manufactured to not allow this to happen - Rule 14 if I remember correctly
Be interested what others think of this - the 2 A109 Powers that crashed from Sloanes had each just come out of servicing having had the scissor link changed, and the new one put on backwards.
Not sure of the full facts but a VIP one and an Air ambulance if I remember the details correctly, happened within a few months of each other, with the fault not discovered until after the second crash where the pilot managed to pull off a mean landing and exposed the fault, where the previous accident had roled and disguised the fact that the scissor link was the cause.

[John Eacott]

RotorHorn,

Thanks, one of these days someone will bring a Power down here for us to play with.

The Power certainly seems to need the extra fuel that it is supposed to be able to carry! (FWIW, Stinger was specifically quoting figures for a C model) I'm vaguely surprised that the cruise isn't up on earlier models, although one major problem that we would encounter if a Power came down here is the weight increase putting the E model into Transport Class A. CASA is paranoid once you move up from Class B (<2750kg), and the increased maintenance and record keeping is both painful and expensive. Do you have the same problem with the CAA?

Italian cars and helicopters: if it isn't leaking oil, there's something wrong

[The Nr Fairy]

The accident reports qmark are referring to are available at :

G-JRSL report

G-TVAA report

[Heliport]

"the fault not discovered until after the second crash"

As I recall, the first crash was wrongly rumoured to be 'pilot error' until the second crash and the AAIB reports were published.
Both pilots did a fantastic job - as the AAIB reports reveal.