Becoming a Police Pilot
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Originally Posted by yarpa
I think we have got one thing right down under. Police flying Police aircraft. Seems strange that you would have a civilian flying who knows nothing about Police work??!! Why not put civilians in Patrol cars as well. God forbid if they had to get their hands dirty and perform an arrest.
"Note: Position involves security clearance which will involve fingerprinting, medical and psychological testing. The successful applicant will be required to become a sworn Victoria Police member. As such, the applicant will be required to fulfil all normal entry requirements for a Victoria Police member"
Sounds to me that its not so much Police flying Police aircraft but civilian pilots getting sworn in just so they can fly.
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Wow, sounds like you guys have a little empire to protect. All I am saying, I would much rather have a copper sitting next to me anyday when the heat is on. I think you hit the nail on the head when the money issue reared it's ugly head. Sounds like it works well for you guys, good luck to you. It was wrong of me to try and compare with U.K Cops flying small machines.
Avoid imitations
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There's no empire to protect, just a different way of doing the job.
In balance, in UK it's considered better for an experienced pilot to be trained in the type of flying the police require, than for a policeman to gain the required flying hours and broad experience. There is nothing to prevent the pilot, whatever his background, getting more physically involved if necessary but in general the best place for the aircraft is in the air, backing up the ground team.
As far as "empire protection" goes, the CAA sets out the minimum flying hours and experience required. This is increased by some police authorities. In the case of the unit I flew for, the minimums were doubled (to 3,000 hours). If a police officer had those hours and the required experience, I'm sure he would be very much welcomed as a pilot.
Using a professional pilot (usually ex-military) to concentrate on the professional aspects of flying, leaving two police officers to concentrate on their specialist subject, works very well. One officer is the camera operator. Being a police officer he knows exactly what is required to maintain good evidential continuity. The mission commander / comms officer is also a policeman /woman.
There was a well-publicised fatal accident some years ago in UK (an Optica aircraft, Hampshire policeman flying, IIRC) that was instrumental in changing the mindset that police officers should be doing the flying.
In balance, in UK it's considered better for an experienced pilot to be trained in the type of flying the police require, than for a policeman to gain the required flying hours and broad experience. There is nothing to prevent the pilot, whatever his background, getting more physically involved if necessary but in general the best place for the aircraft is in the air, backing up the ground team.
As far as "empire protection" goes, the CAA sets out the minimum flying hours and experience required. This is increased by some police authorities. In the case of the unit I flew for, the minimums were doubled (to 3,000 hours). If a police officer had those hours and the required experience, I'm sure he would be very much welcomed as a pilot.
Using a professional pilot (usually ex-military) to concentrate on the professional aspects of flying, leaving two police officers to concentrate on their specialist subject, works very well. One officer is the camera operator. Being a police officer he knows exactly what is required to maintain good evidential continuity. The mission commander / comms officer is also a policeman /woman.
There was a well-publicised fatal accident some years ago in UK (an Optica aircraft, Hampshire policeman flying, IIRC) that was instrumental in changing the mindset that police officers should be doing the flying.
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I know this may wind some up - it's just opinion!
I would imagine there are many who would also baulk at having a civvy Observer in the aircraft, but bring a few on, I say. Police flying is NOT rocket science that absolutely requires every Observer to be a Police Officer. It is, however, fairly scientific and requires a fast brain to multi-task effectively and be a good Police Obs.
Bringing in (just) a couple of ex-military crewmen (even Crabs) to a unit, for instance, (who have many years of aviation experience and therefore already have the third dimension very much in hand) would require very little training to learn the Police way of doing things etc. Searching for suspects, directing officers on the ground, following targets does NOT require Police experience - it requires a brain capable of multi-tasking and logical thought processes. In addition, if they're on a contract similar to (contract) pilots, they would feel it imperative to keep their skills sharp if they wished to stay in the job, as they wouldn't have the cushion of the rest of the force to fall back on if they weren't cutting the mustard!
The training of new (previously used to two dimensions only) Police Officers to understand the complexities of the third dimension, and then add the job of listening & responding to up to 7 different audio inputs whilst directing people on the ground is, IHMO, a significantly greater task than using people who have the third dimension in their blood - hence the use of military pilots often finds them able to assist the Observers as second nature, rather than only by request.
There are already a couple of very capable civvies at Suffolk - the argument
about having to have powers of arrest is so weak, given the frequency of requirement, that it sounds more like desperate justification!
As for Crabs -
I would imagine there are many who would also baulk at having a civvy Observer in the aircraft, but bring a few on, I say. Police flying is NOT rocket science that absolutely requires every Observer to be a Police Officer. It is, however, fairly scientific and requires a fast brain to multi-task effectively and be a good Police Obs.
Bringing in (just) a couple of ex-military crewmen (even Crabs) to a unit, for instance, (who have many years of aviation experience and therefore already have the third dimension very much in hand) would require very little training to learn the Police way of doing things etc. Searching for suspects, directing officers on the ground, following targets does NOT require Police experience - it requires a brain capable of multi-tasking and logical thought processes. In addition, if they're on a contract similar to (contract) pilots, they would feel it imperative to keep their skills sharp if they wished to stay in the job, as they wouldn't have the cushion of the rest of the force to fall back on if they weren't cutting the mustard!
The training of new (previously used to two dimensions only) Police Officers to understand the complexities of the third dimension, and then add the job of listening & responding to up to 7 different audio inputs whilst directing people on the ground is, IHMO, a significantly greater task than using people who have the third dimension in their blood - hence the use of military pilots often finds them able to assist the Observers as second nature, rather than only by request.
There are already a couple of very capable civvies at Suffolk - the argument
about having to have powers of arrest is so weak, given the frequency of requirement, that it sounds more like desperate justification!
As for Crabs -
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The training of new (previously used to two dimensions only) Police Officers to understand the complexities of the third dimension, and then add the job of listening & responding to up to 7 different audio inputs whilst directing people on the ground is, IHMO, a significantly greater task than using people who have the third dimension in their blood
I think we have gone to far with civvies in her and everywhere. As a tax payer I want a Police Officer to deal with my nicked car or shed burglary not a CBSO or a civvie running a desk! I am all for the proper person doing the proper job, a line check is and should be used to mark the performance of observers this will dicate if training needs or a move off is required. Oh and what will they pay civvie observers? A lot less than long service bobbies! pay peanuts...need I go on??
I am not worried about my post as I have a few years only left and if I was moved on so what I can survive, so my reply is not one of "protectionism" just my view, so you watch the controls and I'll watch the role equipment
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Originally Posted by volrider
lets face it a Police Officer on the ground likes to feel they have the comfort of an experienced officer in the aircraft guiding him/her into a target . . . If they thought it was civvies above would they have the same amount of trust??
Second, if the terminology is right and the directions are given efficiently, the guys on the ground can't tell whether it's a "civvie" or not - all they should care about is a competent operator giving clear directions and looking out for them. I would also suggest that any ex-military crewman, for instance, is more than aware of the need to look out for your team, whether they be "civvie" or not. And in any case, all your pilots are civvies, are they not?
And as for pay, it should hardly be a given that the Police will be paying peanuts - just because they do it for control room staff (and you get excellent civvies there too, sometimes) doesn't mean that the same should happen for Observers. At the end of the day, the tax payer should be getting best value for money - the overall provision of air support invariably relys more on skills that are not related to Police experience than to those that are, IMHO.
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Yarpa wind your neck in
Yarpa is obviously a newly sworn member who thinks that every COP is a real good one. Mate when you've been in the job a while you will wake up to the obvious.
The police air wing in your neck of the woods was started by a civvie pilot that went to police school. He liked it by all accounts, However, if your a cop and you get 500 hours they do seem to look after you.
I'd love to hear some stories of when the pilot could land the machine and be a street copper though!!.
handy in St. Albans (the patron saint of welfare) but I bet it's never happened.
Good luck with Dafnie
bye for now
The police air wing in your neck of the woods was started by a civvie pilot that went to police school. He liked it by all accounts, However, if your a cop and you get 500 hours they do seem to look after you.
I'd love to hear some stories of when the pilot could land the machine and be a street copper though!!.
handy in St. Albans (the patron saint of welfare) but I bet it's never happened.
Good luck with Dafnie
bye for now
Last edited by Helibloke; 27th May 2010 at 09:24.
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Okay, being a police pilot here in the US is a little bit different. And I understand the differences between here and the UK, and really do not want to get into the 'ole discussion of police pilots and civie pilots, but observers is a different thing.
When I was a ground pounder and the helicopter was above me, I knew that the observer knew what was happening and potentially going to happen. I knew that he/she had been there and had the same line of thought I was having. What I might do or what the bad guy might do. Very important as I can't always give a full dissertation while I was running/fighting the guy. I knew that from his experience that he would be coordinating a response that best fit the situation.
There has been a lot of discussion on the pilots being ex military and having so much more experience then a regular civilian in-order to do the job safely, is that not the same for an observer (being a police officer over some one that is trained by rote)?
Sorry zorab64 did wind me up a little.
When I was a ground pounder and the helicopter was above me, I knew that the observer knew what was happening and potentially going to happen. I knew that he/she had been there and had the same line of thought I was having. What I might do or what the bad guy might do. Very important as I can't always give a full dissertation while I was running/fighting the guy. I knew that from his experience that he would be coordinating a response that best fit the situation.
There has been a lot of discussion on the pilots being ex military and having so much more experience then a regular civilian in-order to do the job safely, is that not the same for an observer (being a police officer over some one that is trained by rote)?
Sorry zorab64 did wind me up a little.
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Hey no need to say sorry you were just stating the obvious! I might get myself my licence then get minimal hours then learn to fly then get a job as a pilot flying Police helicopters and do it for a lot less, Ummmm bet you would see the argument from a different side then Zorab...experience YOU cant buy it
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Sorry VR & HM - but just look again at the experience that I was intimating in the first place, i.e. ex-military aviators. Guys like that will have more aviation experience, before doing any Police work, than a Police Observer is likely to get in a typical career in Police aviation. That's where the experience benefits the job, and don't forget it's only a small proportion of the team, maybe 15-20% of the Unit Observer strength.
More importantly, the best Police Observers I've seen in the last 10 years are either ex-military who've turned Police, or so young in Police service that they've only got a couple of years experience to call upon anyway. They all support the argument that long Police service does not, necessarily, a good Observer make!
That's not to say that there aren't some very good Observers who've known nothing else but Police - but the military mindset is a lot closer to that of the Police than many, who've not experienced it, might think . . . just a little more professional, IMHO!!
(Oh no, that'll set 'em off again!)
More importantly, the best Police Observers I've seen in the last 10 years are either ex-military who've turned Police, or so young in Police service that they've only got a couple of years experience to call upon anyway. They all support the argument that long Police service does not, necessarily, a good Observer make!
That's not to say that there aren't some very good Observers who've known nothing else but Police - but the military mindset is a lot closer to that of the Police than many, who've not experienced it, might think . . . just a little more professional, IMHO!!
(Oh no, that'll set 'em off again!)
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Zorab you make some good points its just we see it from different sides.
Anyway back to Crabs,,,,I have worked with a few at our unit and it's a nice change having some class in the department
Anyway back to Crabs,,,,I have worked with a few at our unit and it's a nice change having some class in the department
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Sussex have always operated with civilians as the second observer with a police officer as obs 1 in operational control. It works fine as long as you select carefully and train thoroughly.
The fact that the civvy happens to be a paramedic as well just adds to our capabilities.... but that's another discussion!!!!
The fact that the civvy happens to be a paramedic as well just adds to our capabilities.... but that's another discussion!!!!
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You're quite correct VR, we got slightly off the thread but will have to agree to differ in some areas.
As to Crabs - they're not all bad, but a tendency to arrogance can give the wrong impression on occasion! I thought MG had hit the nail on the head on 6th, but it appears not, although the example sounds valid!
As to Crabs - they're not all bad, but a tendency to arrogance can give the wrong impression on occasion! I thought MG had hit the nail on the head on 6th, but it appears not, although the example sounds valid!
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The main reason for police pilots being civvies is down to an experiment years ago when Police aviation was in its infancy. Two officers were trained to highest level at police expense . Upon graduating they swiftly took their shiny new licences to bristow and air europe as I recall for a lovely salary far in excess of police pay . Once bitten and all that , They now dont consider training police officers in the role we have to stick to being jafo's . The other reason is experience . I thinkpas look at at least 1500 hrs and they have to be rotary if you are needed to fly one of the few islanders you will be cross trained . At the very least a newly trained cop would have 200 ish hrs following a fully funded integrated course ,Police flying gives some great exemptions to usual air law and common sense has to prevail , 2-3000 hr ex sea king, lynx ,puma pilot or 200 hr r22 graduate who would you choose to fly your brand new notar at 500 feet over manchester at night
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Its amazing how one learns to cope with the left wrist..maybe slower but gets there in the end Shandypanks Hopefully it will be off Thursday and I will be getting back to normal...whatever that is
Hopefully it will be off Thursday and I will be getting back to normal...whatever that is