Old Pilots
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Old Pilots
Old Theme, Old Thread, Old Pilots.
Do you want to be retired and put out to pasture when you think you are still in your prime. I don't. I'm not. I won't be.
Your comments please.
Do you want to be retired and put out to pasture when you think you are still in your prime. I don't. I'm not. I won't be.
Your comments please.
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"In your Prime?" Yeah, you need to be put out to pasture. Any one who is over 60 and still calling themselves "in their prime" has a grossly over-inflated ego that could be dangerous. I'm over 60 and I am still healthy and able to fly these things, but I'm gonna tell you and anybody else, I ain't in my prime. And neither are you.
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Nose Hair
Thank you very much Hairy Nose.
I would guess you have Hairy Ears too. I would suggest that you listen to people with some sense from your generation such as Lord Kitchener. Your Country Needs You.
We Do Not.
Dave (And The Rest Of Dubai)
Actually
I really did not mean that at all and wouldn\'t have said it if I weren\'t British.
But I did and I am
Dave
I would guess you have Hairy Ears too. I would suggest that you listen to people with some sense from your generation such as Lord Kitchener. Your Country Needs You.
We Do Not.
Dave (And The Rest Of Dubai)
Actually
I really did not mean that at all and wouldn\'t have said it if I weren\'t British.
But I did and I am
Dave
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Don't Put Yourself Down
Noseyhair,
Do not put yourself down. You are still a man.
Climb up.
What a fatuous fool you are though.
Are you a helicopterpilot OR a man.
Dave
Do not put yourself down. You are still a man.
Climb up.
What a fatuous fool you are though.
Are you a helicopterpilot OR a man.
Dave
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I'm getting a little bit lost on the thread's track here, but:
I think nosehair demonstrated some remarkable candidness. No matter what your age or experience level, surely an understanding of your limitations is crucial to being a competent pilot. Nature runs is course, pure and simple. Can't beat biology. Reflexes slow as you age, accuracy increases to compensate. But that only gets you so far.
And when you play the statistics game, the probability of something going wrong unexpectedly on an old (and probably misused
) model is much higher than on a younger model.
I think nosehair demonstrated some remarkable candidness. No matter what your age or experience level, surely an understanding of your limitations is crucial to being a competent pilot. Nature runs is course, pure and simple. Can't beat biology. Reflexes slow as you age, accuracy increases to compensate. But that only gets you so far.
And when you play the statistics game, the probability of something going wrong unexpectedly on an old (and probably misused
) model is much higher than on a younger model.
A very interesting question! One that I've pondered meself a time or two or three.
I used to be super-sharp- at least as far as actual, hands-on stick skills went. On the far side of 50 now and not flying nearly as much as when I was in my 30's and flying 700 hours/year, I wonder if I'm as good as I was? Am I at the top of my game? Or has the downward slide begun? I hardly ever do the things I used to do "for practice" anymore. And certainly my vision is hardly as sharp (damn bifocals). So does my accumulated experience make up for my reduced reflexes? My ego convinces me that I'm still razor-sharp, but still...how could it be possible?
There's no way that I could delude myself that I'm still "in my prime." I also commend "nosehair" for his candor. I know I'm still "good," but the fact is that I'm not a kid anymore. When I realize how much I've forgotten, or how much I have to go look up when someone asks me a question, the point gets driven home quite poignantly.
That pasture is looking awfully good...maybe it's time.
I used to be super-sharp- at least as far as actual, hands-on stick skills went. On the far side of 50 now and not flying nearly as much as when I was in my 30's and flying 700 hours/year, I wonder if I'm as good as I was? Am I at the top of my game? Or has the downward slide begun? I hardly ever do the things I used to do "for practice" anymore. And certainly my vision is hardly as sharp (damn bifocals). So does my accumulated experience make up for my reduced reflexes? My ego convinces me that I'm still razor-sharp, but still...how could it be possible?
There's no way that I could delude myself that I'm still "in my prime." I also commend "nosehair" for his candor. I know I'm still "good," but the fact is that I'm not a kid anymore. When I realize how much I've forgotten, or how much I have to go look up when someone asks me a question, the point gets driven home quite poignantly.
That pasture is looking awfully good...maybe it's time.
I would hope all this experience we have gathered while in our "prime" will help us avoid needing those razor sharp reflexes that we honed so finely back then! Hopefully, if we aviate in a calm reasonable manner....then our physical infirmaties will not prevent us from coping with time senstive occurrences. The old saw about "old and bold" might have an alternative application here.
Prunefan....please to make sure when you take up your pasture meanderings all concerned know you are a still a bull.
Prunefan....please to make sure when you take up your pasture meanderings all concerned know you are a still a bull.
Tightgit
With all this talk of bulls
it seems like a good thread for an old joke
which always worth re-telling.
An old bull and a young bull are in a field.
The young bull says to the old bull
"look over there at the far end of the field,
it's full of cows. If we gallop over there quick we can
f**k two of them."
The old bull replies
"Yeah, but if we walk over there slow we can f**k all of them"
What some old bulls lack in reaction time, they can make up for
with experience.
(rather makes me regret being a middle aged bullock!)
it seems like a good thread for an old joke
which always worth re-telling.
An old bull and a young bull are in a field.
The young bull says to the old bull
"look over there at the far end of the field,
it's full of cows. If we gallop over there quick we can
f**k two of them."
The old bull replies
"Yeah, but if we walk over there slow we can f**k all of them"
What some old bulls lack in reaction time, they can make up for
with experience.
(rather makes me regret being a middle aged bullock!)
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I'm 45 and I know I don't have the reactions I did even five years ago - for example, I can't type as fast and as accurately as I used to. (This reply took 20 minutes, for example.)
SASless:
...or full of it, anyway.
Speaking of bull...couple of us were sitting around shooting it recently. The youngest pilot began regaling us with tales of his flying with the infamous "Commander Chuck" Street, a chap in L.A. (USA) who has figured out an ingenious way to multiplex his 206 income by plastering it with Pepsi logos, getting paid as a broadcaster by three different radio stations and on top of that charging neophyte pilots a tidy sum to ride along with him and get a little stick time, and who has the audacity to claim that he "doesn't make any money" from that 206.
But I digress...
Our conversation turned to the current state of the art of ENG and I mentioned about the early days of flying around L.A. in an out-of-track Bell 47 with the door off and a cameraman hanging out the side holding a film, yes film! camera in the days before video. Yes, it was we who invented the "shaky-cam" technique pioneered by the producers of "NYPD Blue."
The guys looked at me like I was ancient. Instead of breathlessly asking me what it was like to fly a "straight" G-model with a Franklin engine, I thought they might fall asleep. I stopped in mid-story and excused myself - said I had to go to the bathroom. Again.
Maybe my next career will be as a hypnotist. Or amnesia-prevention specialist.
Lu, you with me?
Prunefan....please to make sure when you take up your pasture meanderings all concerned know you are a still a bull.
Speaking of bull...couple of us were sitting around shooting it recently. The youngest pilot began regaling us with tales of his flying with the infamous "Commander Chuck" Street, a chap in L.A. (USA) who has figured out an ingenious way to multiplex his 206 income by plastering it with Pepsi logos, getting paid as a broadcaster by three different radio stations and on top of that charging neophyte pilots a tidy sum to ride along with him and get a little stick time, and who has the audacity to claim that he "doesn't make any money" from that 206.
But I digress...
Our conversation turned to the current state of the art of ENG and I mentioned about the early days of flying around L.A. in an out-of-track Bell 47 with the door off and a cameraman hanging out the side holding a film, yes film! camera in the days before video. Yes, it was we who invented the "shaky-cam" technique pioneered by the producers of "NYPD Blue."
The guys looked at me like I was ancient. Instead of breathlessly asking me what it was like to fly a "straight" G-model with a Franklin engine, I thought they might fall asleep. I stopped in mid-story and excused myself - said I had to go to the bathroom. Again.
Maybe my next career will be as a hypnotist. Or amnesia-prevention specialist.
Lu, you with me?
Definitely lost the edge. Looking back, I reckon I got onto the wrong side of the drag curve, around 30, methinks....
Having to monitor my performance more and more closely as the years advance. Those check rides / medicals not as easy peezy as before.....
Given the choice/alternatives, I would bail out earlier rather than later.
Hate seeing a pro - soldier onto the bitter end, come hell or high water. Make room for the young thrusters - that's my feeling
Having to monitor my performance more and more closely as the years advance. Those check rides / medicals not as easy peezy as before.....
Given the choice/alternatives, I would bail out earlier rather than later.
Hate seeing a pro - soldier onto the bitter end, come hell or high water. Make room for the young thrusters - that's my feeling
Avoid imitations
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Fly past 60? No way. I'm going out to stud, back to the mad, passionate, lady pleasing for money Gigolo days.
Cough, Splutter, where's me inhaler? Must get these glasses changed. Ah, there it is.
Hey, PF#1, you're definitely past it, you ain't slagged nobody off today yet. Can you pass my walking stick so I can stand up please..
Sorry, what was the question again?
Cough, Splutter, where's me inhaler? Must get these glasses changed. Ah, there it is.
Hey, PF#1, you're definitely past it, you ain't slagged nobody off today yet. Can you pass my walking stick so I can stand up please..
Sorry, what was the question again?
Iconoclast
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Age is in the eyes of the beholder. Providing you can still see.
To: PPRUNE FAN#1
Pilots are not the only ones to experience this dilemma in “knowing when to hold them and knowing when to fold them”. I turned 73 last December and in the previous November I completed a three year job working at my computer and being paid very well for it. Since that time I have been offered several good jobs but it would involve driving to Georgia, or, to California or Washington and staying for anywhere from six months to over a year. I just don’t have it any more. I can’t take the travel nor, can I take sitting at a desk and being productive while working under some guy that knows less about my job than I do.
I guess I have folded them and now I am officially retired. I have had a long run from 1955 to 2003 working in all aspects of the aerospace industry. I have a lot to look back on and in looking forward I can see incontinence, bad legs and slow deterioration and then, total freedom.
Lu, you with me?
I guess I have folded them and now I am officially retired. I have had a long run from 1955 to 2003 working in all aspects of the aerospace industry. I have a lot to look back on and in looking forward I can see incontinence, bad legs and slow deterioration and then, total freedom.
Well...I can face the truth....the UH-1H I fly for the museum is now being called "Gramp's aircraft".....the insult was when I was offered a hand up into the thing.....young whipper snappers got no respect! At the bar....instead of a good single malt...the young pups are sending around Prune juice and vodka....calling them pile drivers and suggesting they would help keep me moving. No respect I tell you....flew in a 1936 vintage bi-plane yesterday....was asked if I remembered when they came into production....come to think of it....gosh, I wish I could remember what that was about? But after all....I do recall flying an airway segment stepping on the A's and N's.....and doing an ADF approach using the handcrank to find the null....now that was real helicopter flying! I bet some of the guys here remember fabric covered rotor blades too! 37 years of helicopter flying and just getting started !
Last edited by SASless; 20th Jul 2004 at 01:35.
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In a lengthy career of mostly undiscovered crime, the only thing I've learned for sure is that you are never as sharp as you think you are; and that goes for ANY age! I seem to have sadly lacked the absolute certainties expressed by some Pruners here.
But by God I've had a good time and even enjoyed it; and luckily our fellow aviators will always puncture any false self esteem that may creep into our lives.
So, I say keep learning and remain suspicious of anything mechanical and any "expert" advice; stop when you've found something else to do and before gravity catches up with you.
But by God I've had a good time and even enjoyed it; and luckily our fellow aviators will always puncture any false self esteem that may creep into our lives.
So, I say keep learning and remain suspicious of anything mechanical and any "expert" advice; stop when you've found something else to do and before gravity catches up with you.
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One thing about getting older;
"Hopefully one tends to use the experience you have gained to avoid situations requiring the demonstration of your superior skills and catlike reflexes."
"Hopefully one tends to use the experience you have gained to avoid situations requiring the demonstration of your superior skills and catlike reflexes."
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Experience making up for reflexes
Turn that argument on its head: If you have the reflexes but not the experience, it'll be okay provided you're not in a situation requiring much experience?
All the experience in the world isn't going to help your pax if your heart finally decides to give up the ghost, or you don't pick up that glider cloud soaring through your chin bubble, or that wire in the marginal weather, or a moments inattention means a crucial missed radio call. The chance of that happening in a post 60 y/o pilot is significantly higher (cue: demands for statistical proof
).
Hey, that would make an interesting comparison: which is statistically more likely to quit - the engine (re: single/twin conundrum) or the experienced pilot's heart
Joking aside, being a helicopter pilot can be considered a demanding occupation. The standard expected when carrying pax is high. A duty of care is owed to those people to ensure they are not exposed to a greater risk that they have to be. In an ideal world pilots would be an "on condition" commodity. But there comes a point where the human body is too unpredictable for that risk to be taken.
Experience is invaluable, but there are some times it just won't cut it alone. Some things just need cold, hard reflexes. Just like when you tell the student that knowing the flight manual and CPL syllabus inside out isn't going to save his ass all the time, some things you can only learn through experience. Not to run before you can walk is an important lesson to young pilots. Learning when to stop running and start walking again is probably an equally important lesson. The crucial difference is that an inexperienced pilot will continue to gain in experience, becoming less of a liability with time. There is no way but downhill when your reflexes start to go.
As a low hour, inexperienced pilot I have many people above me in the food chain who will constantly remind me of the fact. And this will be the case for many years to come. But when you reach the higher echelons, who reminds them of their limitations? Particularly the incipient deteriorations that sneak up with age. You think the 20year old line pilot is going to have a quiet word with his Chief Pilot telling him that he thinks his awareness is slipping, or he was a little slow responding to something? In reality, probably not. Which is where the higher authority pops in - the law, setting down a maximum age.
All the experience in the world isn't going to help your pax if your heart finally decides to give up the ghost, or you don't pick up that glider cloud soaring through your chin bubble, or that wire in the marginal weather, or a moments inattention means a crucial missed radio call. The chance of that happening in a post 60 y/o pilot is significantly higher (cue: demands for statistical proof
).Hey, that would make an interesting comparison: which is statistically more likely to quit - the engine (re: single/twin conundrum) or the experienced pilot's heart
Joking aside, being a helicopter pilot can be considered a demanding occupation. The standard expected when carrying pax is high. A duty of care is owed to those people to ensure they are not exposed to a greater risk that they have to be. In an ideal world pilots would be an "on condition" commodity. But there comes a point where the human body is too unpredictable for that risk to be taken.
Experience is invaluable, but there are some times it just won't cut it alone. Some things just need cold, hard reflexes. Just like when you tell the student that knowing the flight manual and CPL syllabus inside out isn't going to save his ass all the time, some things you can only learn through experience. Not to run before you can walk is an important lesson to young pilots. Learning when to stop running and start walking again is probably an equally important lesson. The crucial difference is that an inexperienced pilot will continue to gain in experience, becoming less of a liability with time. There is no way but downhill when your reflexes start to go.
As a low hour, inexperienced pilot I have many people above me in the food chain who will constantly remind me of the fact. And this will be the case for many years to come. But when you reach the higher echelons, who reminds them of their limitations? Particularly the incipient deteriorations that sneak up with age. You think the 20year old line pilot is going to have a quiet word with his Chief Pilot telling him that he thinks his awareness is slipping, or he was a little slow responding to something? In reality, probably not. Which is where the higher authority pops in - the law, setting down a maximum age.
