Aerobatics in a 407 (Incl. video)
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WHY would you bother
I dont often reply but have to this time WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER
wouldnt like to be in it after, thank you.
Francois Marais, after doing 4000hrs ag flying in a B206 i am wondering why would you use right cyclic and pull power at the top of a torque/pedal turn?
At 50ft AGL you could end up on your back in turf......
wouldnt like to be in it after, thank you.
Francois Marais, after doing 4000hrs ag flying in a B206 i am wondering why would you use right cyclic and pull power at the top of a torque/pedal turn?
At 50ft AGL you could end up on your back in turf......
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Gunss
You're right. It was Mr CE. Highly respected pilot in my eyes. And I think he will go down in the books.
All I know is that I wouldn't try that at home.
DD
You're right. It was Mr CE. Highly respected pilot in my eyes. And I think he will go down in the books.
All I know is that I wouldn't try that at home.
DD
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Apparently Bell inspected the A/C afterwards and found no damage. But who knows, if they can blame a pilot for a boom strike when the a/c is shutting down in gusty conditions, you never know.
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407 Permission
Guns
I have it on very good authority that the CAA did not give permission for this display and that the CAA gentleman on duty nearly had a hart attack when it occured.
The matter has been forwarded to Bell and their reply was apparently to ground the aircraft and crate it back to the factory for inspection.
It seems that this might just be one of the most expensive displays we've seen in a while.
I have it on very good authority that the CAA did not give permission for this display and that the CAA gentleman on duty nearly had a hart attack when it occured.
The matter has been forwarded to Bell and their reply was apparently to ground the aircraft and crate it back to the factory for inspection.
It seems that this might just be one of the most expensive displays we've seen in a while.
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I have been in contact with people in the know this morning and the facts are as follows:
1. Bell or any representative of Bell have NOT inspected the machine.
2. Certainly one of the owners was not aware of the display and "was white with rage" after the event and wanted instant clarification from Bell as to where he stood.
3. The CAA would only have approved the show if they were convinced that Bell had given approval, which Bell had not.
4. Bell have requested a copy of the video which has been forwarded to them for investigation. They have received information from CE as to how he performed the manoeuvre. This has not been tested and would never be sanctioned by Bell.
5. Bell would only ever do something like this in an experimental machine and by the test pilots, which has not happened.
The official stance from Bell is that further operation of this machine is entirely at the owner's risk! Warranty issues down the road, I am sure that we are all on the same page as to how those requests will be treated!
A show stopper all the same and I was very glad to have been witness to it. I doubt that I would be happy to fly that machine and I would be mad if I was the owner, but hell have I gained respect for the 407!
1. Bell or any representative of Bell have NOT inspected the machine.
2. Certainly one of the owners was not aware of the display and "was white with rage" after the event and wanted instant clarification from Bell as to where he stood.
3. The CAA would only have approved the show if they were convinced that Bell had given approval, which Bell had not.
4. Bell have requested a copy of the video which has been forwarded to them for investigation. They have received information from CE as to how he performed the manoeuvre. This has not been tested and would never be sanctioned by Bell.
5. Bell would only ever do something like this in an experimental machine and by the test pilots, which has not happened.
The official stance from Bell is that further operation of this machine is entirely at the owner's risk! Warranty issues down the road, I am sure that we are all on the same page as to how those requests will be treated!
A show stopper all the same and I was very glad to have been witness to it. I doubt that I would be happy to fly that machine and I would be mad if I was the owner, but hell have I gained respect for the 407!
Last edited by Sir Cumference; 13th Jul 2004 at 07:39.
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As time moves on, so the facts come to light. The information posted by Warloc76 and Sir Cumference, are factually correct.
Rumour has it that the pilot is in DEEP dwang, and may have his licence revoked and suspended.
Furthermore, the pilot was not very economical with the truth when questioned by the CAA official directly after the show.
Rumour has it that the pilot flew the sequence during his "validation flight" on the Friday, and the Airshow Director and Safety Officer authorized the manouver based on information supplied to them by the pilot that Bell and the CAA had approved the manouvers, which we now know, was not the case.
The fact that this pilot was trained in Germany by the factory pilots from MBB how to loop and roll a BK 117 and MBB 105, does not necessarily mean that he, as a "Professional pilot", is entitled to break the rules (and the law) by an act of such stupidity. Stupidity?? YES! The fact that Bell have withdrawn the warranties on the machine, theoretically renders it worthless. NO re-sale value! Zero. May just as well be dumped as scrap.
The 407 handbook clearly states NO aerobatic manouvers permitted, and this SHOULD be respected.
I don't care what anyone says, but this pilot should be brought to book. Not only has he given South African pilots a bad name (Which is clearly the case described on another forum here on PPRUNE) but he has caused huge financial harm to the owners of the helicopter.
The owners should sue him for the replacement costs of a new 407. I would if it was mine!!!
Rumour has it that the pilot is in DEEP dwang, and may have his licence revoked and suspended.
Furthermore, the pilot was not very economical with the truth when questioned by the CAA official directly after the show.
Rumour has it that the pilot flew the sequence during his "validation flight" on the Friday, and the Airshow Director and Safety Officer authorized the manouver based on information supplied to them by the pilot that Bell and the CAA had approved the manouvers, which we now know, was not the case.
The fact that this pilot was trained in Germany by the factory pilots from MBB how to loop and roll a BK 117 and MBB 105, does not necessarily mean that he, as a "Professional pilot", is entitled to break the rules (and the law) by an act of such stupidity. Stupidity?? YES! The fact that Bell have withdrawn the warranties on the machine, theoretically renders it worthless. NO re-sale value! Zero. May just as well be dumped as scrap.
The 407 handbook clearly states NO aerobatic manouvers permitted, and this SHOULD be respected.
I don't care what anyone says, but this pilot should be brought to book. Not only has he given South African pilots a bad name (Which is clearly the case described on another forum here on PPRUNE) but he has caused huge financial harm to the owners of the helicopter.
The owners should sue him for the replacement costs of a new 407. I would if it was mine!!!
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DualDriver, Is it possible to do a loop and not exceed 1G ? I'm no expert, but I thought that in fixed wing you'd pull at least 2G. Would it be different in a helicopter ? I'm happy with 1G for a well executed roll.
Comments please.
Spec.
Comments please.
Spec.
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Specnut
I really wouldn't know. I have never done aerobatics, and DEFINATELY am not planning to, not in a helo.
Maybe someone else could comment on that one. Personally, I don't think so.
I really wouldn't know. I have never done aerobatics, and DEFINATELY am not planning to, not in a helo.
Maybe someone else could comment on that one. Personally, I don't think so.
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Unfortunately I don't know the pilot, so I am therefore not at liberty to comment on his flying skills or ability.
What is however rumoured in this forum, is the fact that no authority or approval was granted by either the SACAA or Bell to execute these manouvers. Surely, a pilot of this man's calibre would have thought clearly about his actions or his intended actions, and ensured that all was above board? (Clearances, approvals, possible emergency, escape routes etc.)
It will be really interesting to see what action the SACAA intends taking against this pilot, if any.
Gunnzzz, maybe you can entice the pilot to post his version of events here for us.
I must admit that I am not a big 407 fan, but what is undoubtly true, is the fact that the pilot executed these manouvers, and lived for all of us to tell his tale. Interesting! So maybe I should re-evaluate my thoughts on the 407.
What is however rumoured in this forum, is the fact that no authority or approval was granted by either the SACAA or Bell to execute these manouvers. Surely, a pilot of this man's calibre would have thought clearly about his actions or his intended actions, and ensured that all was above board? (Clearances, approvals, possible emergency, escape routes etc.)
It will be really interesting to see what action the SACAA intends taking against this pilot, if any.
Gunnzzz, maybe you can entice the pilot to post his version of events here for us.
I must admit that I am not a big 407 fan, but what is undoubtly true, is the fact that the pilot executed these manouvers, and lived for all of us to tell his tale. Interesting! So maybe I should re-evaluate my thoughts on the 407.
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It appears that the 407 was indeed rolled & looped.
Although the 407 manual clearly states NO aerobatic manouvers, or intended aerobatic manouvers, I guess that some pilots just have the nack to execute these manouvers without killing themselves, either due to incredible knowledge, competence and ability, or plain stupidity. Only the pilot can tell.
"Mighty Gem, you posted a question about what is defined as an aerobatic manouver in terms of angle of bank/nose up and down attitude".
I spoke to a reputable Air Force instructor, and they teach their pupils that any nose up or down pitch beyond 30º, and angle of bank exceeding 60º, may be construed as an aerobatic manouver. Helicopter Combat pilots should be able to tell us more about these manouvers, as I am sure the "old Cobra", (Bert's baby) the Apaches and other combat helicopters do have advanced "aerobatic" manouvering capabilities.
Specnut727, you should be able to execute a roll in your fixed wing aerobatic airplane without pulling any G's. If you're pulling 1 G your getting there, but the ultimate is not to pull a G during a well executed "barrel roll". Good luck & safe flying!
Although the 407 manual clearly states NO aerobatic manouvers, or intended aerobatic manouvers, I guess that some pilots just have the nack to execute these manouvers without killing themselves, either due to incredible knowledge, competence and ability, or plain stupidity. Only the pilot can tell.
"Mighty Gem, you posted a question about what is defined as an aerobatic manouver in terms of angle of bank/nose up and down attitude".
I spoke to a reputable Air Force instructor, and they teach their pupils that any nose up or down pitch beyond 30º, and angle of bank exceeding 60º, may be construed as an aerobatic manouver. Helicopter Combat pilots should be able to tell us more about these manouvers, as I am sure the "old Cobra", (Bert's baby) the Apaches and other combat helicopters do have advanced "aerobatic" manouvering capabilities.
Specnut727, you should be able to execute a roll in your fixed wing aerobatic airplane without pulling any G's. If you're pulling 1 G your getting there, but the ultimate is not to pull a G during a well executed "barrel roll".
Good luck & safe flying!
I think you'll find that a perfectly executed barrel roll is a 1g manouevre (and therefore flyable in anything from a hang glider to a 707 ).
To clarify: I believe that when you talk of "pulling g" you actually mean pulling more than the 1g that we all experience on our stroll out to the aircraft.
).To clarify: I believe that when you talk of "pulling g" you actually mean pulling more than the 1g that we all experience on our stroll out to the aircraft.
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Loops and Rolls
There is one very important aspect that we are overlooking here. This is that there must have been sanction from the heirarchy at the company for this to be done. One wonders if the pilot did not mention that he felt he could 'do it' and then for maximum airshow...
I do not imagine that this was not discussed at length in the lead up to the show, the Friday practice in the GF and then at the field. The pilot did not perform this on the spur of the moment and he must have had managemnt support before the time. I wonder if he still has the support or if that has mysteriously vaporized???!!
I do not imagine that this was not discussed at length in the lead up to the show, the Friday practice in the GF and then at the field. The pilot did not perform this on the spur of the moment and he must have had managemnt support before the time. I wonder if he still has the support or if that has mysteriously vaporized???!!
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As to the withdrawal of the warranty by Bell, if true, this would seem to be a knee-jerk overreaction. Surely many aircraft which are damaged in accidents are inspected, repaired, and returned to service, presumably with warranty reinstated. Is this situation substantially different?
-Stan-
-Stan-
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The difference I see with this situation Vs an accident or incident is this was a blatantly planned disregard for the flight manual, including the misleading of the authorities proir to the demonstration...not just a hard landing to inspect.
I completely agree with Bell, I'd immediately remove the aircraft from service, remove the pilot's licences, and seek legal compensation for the losses.
If this aircraft does come apart in the next while and kills 7 innocent persons..then what ????
Here's a question Stan...would you care to inspect, re-certify and sign this airframe off as OK ??? Big responsibility !
I completely agree with Bell, I'd immediately remove the aircraft from service, remove the pilot's licences, and seek legal compensation for the losses.
If this aircraft does come apart in the next while and kills 7 innocent persons..then what ????
Here's a question Stan...would you care to inspect, re-certify and sign this airframe off as OK ??? Big responsibility !
Last edited by 407 Driver; 14th Jul 2004 at 02:02.
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The MD500 FM states that aerobatic manuvers are also prohibited, and many people loop the often, I have even seen the factory instructors show some students down here to loop them. Nobody's making a big deal of it.
I guess everyone's shocked because they thought the 407 was a pig that couldn't do it.
I guess everyone's shocked because they thought the 407 was a pig that couldn't do it.
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http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X20685&key=1
aerobatics with bad outcome !!, these are the words you do not want to hear a pilot say "watch this ".
aerobatics with bad outcome !!, these are the words you do not want to hear a pilot say "watch this ".
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The development of the semi and rigid rotor systems cultivated thoughts in the minds of some helo pilots that at last the machines could be aerobatted. Alas those that advocated this capability stop well short of considering other factors, as Mr Coyle points out - engine/transmission oil system limitations, airframe build limitations, the rapid bleed of energy etc. The galahs that support the the aerobatic capabilities of helos are the same ones who contiually ignore other limitations. Generally these pilots have not been trained in F/W aerobatics and have absolutely no idea of the flight regime they are entering.
Leave aerobatics to the pilots who have the skills in machines designed for the task.
Consider your future - you are certainly not cut out to be helicopter pilots!
GAGS
E86
Leave aerobatics to the pilots who have the skills in machines designed for the task.
Consider your future - you are certainly not cut out to be helicopter pilots!
GAGS
E86