Australia: Training, Licence Conversion, Job Prospects
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Hay guys, need some advice if you've got the time. I'm in the very early stages of getting my CPL (H) at PHS in Melbourne. I've spent the last week going over all the doom and gloom about the job market in thee forums, but decide to stick it out anyway and bust my gut and see what happpens. Ideally I am hoping to do a stint at PHS's Ayers Rock operation to build my hours. I know some of you think that this is a bit of a 'carrot dangler' but has anyone been out there who actually earnt some decent hours, and roughly how long did it take? Were you spending more time digging holes and filling them in again, or actually flying?
On a different note. My very supportive wife (hard to find!) and I want to use piloting as a basis to travel overseas. Apart from turbine rating to start, anything else you would recommend to get at the beginning or just obtain specific ratings for specific jobs? (does that make sense)
On a different note. My very supportive wife (hard to find!) and I want to use piloting as a basis to travel overseas. Apart from turbine rating to start, anything else you would recommend to get at the beginning or just obtain specific ratings for specific jobs? (does that make sense)
FF,
The work at Ayers Rock is not about digging holes and then filling them. It is about getting experience by building hours and assisting in the running of a tourist operation. The flying is almost all scenic work at first, then other charters as you become more experienced.
You will average around 25-30 hours per month. You start in a jet ranger, then when you've done a few months you go into the long ranger and H500.
The accomodation is in the form of 2 or 3 bedroomed units which you share with other pilots, rent free. You usually work 5.5 days a week. Most pilots start looking for other work after 18 months to 2 years. You are unlikely to have 1000hrs by that stage but the last few guys who have left with 600-800 hours haven't had a problem getting other work because nearly all their time is turbine.
Not everyone who does their licence at PHS will get a job, it would be foolish to believe that's the case. No promises are made with regard to jobs, when a slot is available interviews for those interested are held and the right person gets the job.
I have also heard that 2 other Vic based operators approach PHS when they need low hour pilots.
Speak to the instructors, MS, SW and PT have all done a stint in the NT or PM me if you wish.
Even if it doesn't work out, the training at PHS always seems well regarded in the industry, and that can only help if you are looking for work elsewhere.
If I sound biased, its because I am!
The work at Ayers Rock is not about digging holes and then filling them. It is about getting experience by building hours and assisting in the running of a tourist operation. The flying is almost all scenic work at first, then other charters as you become more experienced.
You will average around 25-30 hours per month. You start in a jet ranger, then when you've done a few months you go into the long ranger and H500.
The accomodation is in the form of 2 or 3 bedroomed units which you share with other pilots, rent free. You usually work 5.5 days a week. Most pilots start looking for other work after 18 months to 2 years. You are unlikely to have 1000hrs by that stage but the last few guys who have left with 600-800 hours haven't had a problem getting other work because nearly all their time is turbine.
Not everyone who does their licence at PHS will get a job, it would be foolish to believe that's the case. No promises are made with regard to jobs, when a slot is available interviews for those interested are held and the right person gets the job.
I have also heard that 2 other Vic based operators approach PHS when they need low hour pilots.
Speak to the instructors, MS, SW and PT have all done a stint in the NT or PM me if you wish.
Even if it doesn't work out, the training at PHS always seems well regarded in the industry, and that can only help if you are looking for work elsewhere.
If I sound biased, its because I am!
Last edited by pohm1; 7th Feb 2004 at 10:40.
FF
I trained with PHS and worked for them for four years. Two years at the rock and two years in Melbourne as an instructor. I walked away after four years with them with around 2500 hours, a grade 1 instructor rating, numerous endorsements, and experience in tourism, bush work, pilot training, firefighting, film work and general charter. I worked hard for them, and they expect that, but in hind sight they gave me some pretty good opportunities for a low time pilot and an average of 600 hours per year. Can't argue with that.
With tourism work its about 20% flying and 80% all the other stuff that gets bums on seats and keeps the operation going. You want to fly more, you talk more people into flying, simple. Operators in tourism look for the kind of personality that is good for that, and that gives the punters a good time and good service, and someone who is willing to work hard without moaning about it.
If you want to work overseas, long range plan I reckon would be to aim for the twins, and a good start is turbine hours with the IREX and ATPL subjects under your belt.
Good luck!
I trained with PHS and worked for them for four years. Two years at the rock and two years in Melbourne as an instructor. I walked away after four years with them with around 2500 hours, a grade 1 instructor rating, numerous endorsements, and experience in tourism, bush work, pilot training, firefighting, film work and general charter. I worked hard for them, and they expect that, but in hind sight they gave me some pretty good opportunities for a low time pilot and an average of 600 hours per year. Can't argue with that.
With tourism work its about 20% flying and 80% all the other stuff that gets bums on seats and keeps the operation going. You want to fly more, you talk more people into flying, simple. Operators in tourism look for the kind of personality that is good for that, and that gives the punters a good time and good service, and someone who is willing to work hard without moaning about it.
If you want to work overseas, long range plan I reckon would be to aim for the twins, and a good start is turbine hours with the IREX and ATPL subjects under your belt.
Good luck!
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The reference to digging holes probably relates to working bees at Senior Management place of residence. Whatever it takes I guess.
As POHM says the training (as with most Oz schools) is very good.
Good luck.
As POHM says the training (as with most Oz schools) is very good.
Good luck.
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Everyone, thanks heaps for the feedback. It was the little bit of good news I needed to cement my decision. Great to hear all the good things about PHS too! See you guys in the air sometime!
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advice please! emigration/training: NZ or Oz
its been a while since i posted, so bear with me as a i ramble on. i know that there's a [most excellent] sticky collated by heliport on training, but i can't find what i'm looking for.
i am 23 and, like most young guys on here, have always wanted to be a helo pilot. unlike them, i have also always wanted to live abroad, so am not bothered about converting an overseas licence back to a UK one. for cost reasons, the most obvious places for me to train/live/ then hopefully work are the US, Oz, or NZ. When I do emigrate I will be taking the missus with me and so the US is out due to her being a pharmacist and uncle sam would require her to redo her 4yr degree from scratch. That leaves Oz and NZ. I have no idea what the cost of living, job prospects, etc. are in either of these countries, and would appreciate a little objective advice from locals and expats.
Looking on the various training websites, it looks like i can get a CPL ticket in either country for around Ł20k [inc. contingencies], then i plan to get CFI/CFII qualified to build hours [any ideas on costs?] before moving on the the ATPLH. Basically, i'd be in the same boat as all the local low time guys.
Okay question time....
1] what are the realistic opportunities for obtaining a full time flying job in both countries. Most of the larger training outfits advertise that they give priority to their trainees for low hour jobs, but is this just PR speak or is there a steady demand as their CFI's leave for better jobs? What are the other hour building jobs in the region? [i would love to gain some experience mustering, but have heard they mainly train local guys who have ties to the area and won't jump ship at the first opportunity].
2] should i obtain a full time CFI position, would the salary be enough to maintain a decent standard of living, bearing in mind I hope to pay for all training costs with my savings [i.e. no loan repayments] and the missus will be working in hospital pharmacy. I'm not asking for a ferrari and sydney penthouse, just a good sized apartment and a reasonably new car. i've read starting salary figures of around AUD25,000, which equates to around Ł10,000. I'm not clued up about real estate prices, tax, cost of living etc. over there but this figure would get me nowhere in the UK.
3] which region/city would serve best as a base for finding flying work with low hours. I like the sound of the sunshine coast as there are lots of operators [and beaches!] but would need an area with a healthy engineering/industrial sector to work in if the flying work doesn't start as soon as i hope [i'm currently working as a manufacturing manager]. I know that the NZ and Oz licenses will allow me to fly in either country, but would prefer some stability regarding where i live early on.
4] my long term aspiration is obviously to fly large turbines, either for a local operator flying from a fixed base or working tours within south east asia. will the Oz/NZ licence allow this or would i need to convert for each country i want to fly in?
5] if you were me, would you stay and work in the UK for longer, knowing that any additional cash i save will transfer favourably to dollars, or move as soon as i have the money to train? i'm itching to get started as soon as possible, and it will largely come down to if i can find work quick enough following training. it would be nice to have that financial cushion, but am hungry to get airborne.
i know some of my questions aren't really aviation related, but i would appreciate your views [particularly those of someone who has been there and done it]. i'm not in a priveledged position where i can make this kind of investment and shrug it off it it doesn't work out, so need to dip my toe in the water before jumping in. i am prepared to work hard to get where i want to be though, and hope that this counts for something.
cheers for reading,
Phil.
i am 23 and, like most young guys on here, have always wanted to be a helo pilot. unlike them, i have also always wanted to live abroad, so am not bothered about converting an overseas licence back to a UK one. for cost reasons, the most obvious places for me to train/live/ then hopefully work are the US, Oz, or NZ. When I do emigrate I will be taking the missus with me and so the US is out due to her being a pharmacist and uncle sam would require her to redo her 4yr degree from scratch. That leaves Oz and NZ. I have no idea what the cost of living, job prospects, etc. are in either of these countries, and would appreciate a little objective advice from locals and expats.
Looking on the various training websites, it looks like i can get a CPL ticket in either country for around Ł20k [inc. contingencies], then i plan to get CFI/CFII qualified to build hours [any ideas on costs?] before moving on the the ATPLH. Basically, i'd be in the same boat as all the local low time guys.
Okay question time....
1] what are the realistic opportunities for obtaining a full time flying job in both countries. Most of the larger training outfits advertise that they give priority to their trainees for low hour jobs, but is this just PR speak or is there a steady demand as their CFI's leave for better jobs? What are the other hour building jobs in the region? [i would love to gain some experience mustering, but have heard they mainly train local guys who have ties to the area and won't jump ship at the first opportunity].
2] should i obtain a full time CFI position, would the salary be enough to maintain a decent standard of living, bearing in mind I hope to pay for all training costs with my savings [i.e. no loan repayments] and the missus will be working in hospital pharmacy. I'm not asking for a ferrari and sydney penthouse, just a good sized apartment and a reasonably new car. i've read starting salary figures of around AUD25,000, which equates to around Ł10,000. I'm not clued up about real estate prices, tax, cost of living etc. over there but this figure would get me nowhere in the UK.
3] which region/city would serve best as a base for finding flying work with low hours. I like the sound of the sunshine coast as there are lots of operators [and beaches!] but would need an area with a healthy engineering/industrial sector to work in if the flying work doesn't start as soon as i hope [i'm currently working as a manufacturing manager]. I know that the NZ and Oz licenses will allow me to fly in either country, but would prefer some stability regarding where i live early on.
4] my long term aspiration is obviously to fly large turbines, either for a local operator flying from a fixed base or working tours within south east asia. will the Oz/NZ licence allow this or would i need to convert for each country i want to fly in?
5] if you were me, would you stay and work in the UK for longer, knowing that any additional cash i save will transfer favourably to dollars, or move as soon as i have the money to train? i'm itching to get started as soon as possible, and it will largely come down to if i can find work quick enough following training. it would be nice to have that financial cushion, but am hungry to get airborne.
i know some of my questions aren't really aviation related, but i would appreciate your views [particularly those of someone who has been there and done it]. i'm not in a priveledged position where i can make this kind of investment and shrug it off it it doesn't work out, so need to dip my toe in the water before jumping in. i am prepared to work hard to get where i want to be though, and hope that this counts for something.
cheers for reading,
Phil.
MR S is telling the truth.
Take his advice and apply it to NZ as well, but mulitply to the power of 2.
Twice as hard, twice as depressing.
Why do you think there are so many Aussies and Kiwis working anywhere but at home? We all want the beaches and mountains but the work is not there.
Your other major issue is immigration. Your missus might be alright but you may not get a work visa issued on the basis of her job. It happened to my wife here in Canada. Two years and no working allowed. There are so many new pilots in both countries that you will be starting way behind from the beginning.
As "S" said; the starter jobs in both places are miles away from civilisation and you really need to reflect on whether she wants to be left alone in a foriegn country.
....excuse the healthy dose of reality
Take his advice and apply it to NZ as well, but mulitply to the power of 2.
Twice as hard, twice as depressing.
Why do you think there are so many Aussies and Kiwis working anywhere but at home? We all want the beaches and mountains but the work is not there.
Your other major issue is immigration. Your missus might be alright but you may not get a work visa issued on the basis of her job. It happened to my wife here in Canada. Two years and no working allowed. There are so many new pilots in both countries that you will be starting way behind from the beginning.
As "S" said; the starter jobs in both places are miles away from civilisation and you really need to reflect on whether she wants to be left alone in a foriegn country.
....excuse the healthy dose of reality
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CPL(H) Theory course...Help!
Hi! At the moment I am just starting my training at PHS in Melbourne, who have there theory course which is internet-based. Has anyone had any experience in this. Have looked at the fist subject and am baffled already. Am I better off doing a theory course full-time? If so, has anyone got any recommendations? Preferably something local, ie, Melbourne or Victoria. Or am I just stressing for nothing, and the theory's the easy bit!!??
um...by the way, that should read 'first subject'....I haven't got to the part about fists yet....
um...by the way, that should read 'first subject'....I haven't got to the part about fists yet....
Mr Selfish.
I don't wish to come across as some kind of spelling-crazed Nazi, but dude, in the last post alone you treated us to:
unfortunatly, impeading, ambiguos, irrelivent, scruteny, applicents, apaling, aggresive, unco-operative, theroy,
and everyone's favourite proffesional
If fellow Rotorheads are to give up time reading your posts, it may be respectful to them to plough those posts through some sort of spell-checker.
Regards
I don't wish to come across as some kind of spelling-crazed Nazi, but dude, in the last post alone you treated us to:
unfortunatly, impeading, ambiguos, irrelivent, scruteny, applicents, apaling, aggresive, unco-operative, theroy,
and everyone's favourite proffesional
If fellow Rotorheads are to give up time reading your posts, it may be respectful to them to plough those posts through some sort of spell-checker.
Regards
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Thank heavens for that.....the heat has been taken off me...thanks selfish!!!
Bomber....mr selfish is probably a bit like me...we are no oxford scholars, but we know our jobs inside out and to be quite honest i still could read the post, it wasnt until you highlighted the mistakes i picked up on it....hows my spelling going?
maybe PPRUNE can get a spell checker...helps on those nights when you have a few...hey mr selfish!!! ( grin)
cheers
Bomber....mr selfish is probably a bit like me...we are no oxford scholars, but we know our jobs inside out and to be quite honest i still could read the post, it wasnt until you highlighted the mistakes i picked up on it....hows my spelling going?
maybe PPRUNE can get a spell checker...helps on those nights when you have a few...hey mr selfish!!! ( grin)
cheers
belly tank,
when someone starts wielding words like proffesional in an accusatory way about some company's internet based course, the effect is somewhat diminished by incorrect spelling .(Even if they are a bunch of cnuts
!!!!!!!!!)
There are also a number of us who do not have English as our first language. To save endless hours searching fruitlessly for newly-invented words from Dunnunda in our English-Swahili dictionaries, maybe it is beholden upon Englanders and the Colonials to play the game.
And by the way, seeing as you asked, your spelling "is going fine", although I notice from your profile that you call yourself a cheif pilot!!
Au revoir
when someone starts wielding words like proffesional in an accusatory way about some company's internet based course, the effect is somewhat diminished by incorrect spelling .(Even if they are a bunch of cnuts
!!!!!!!!!)There are also a number of us who do not have English as our first language. To save endless hours searching fruitlessly for newly-invented words from Dunnunda in our English-Swahili dictionaries, maybe it is beholden upon Englanders and the Colonials to play the game.
And by the way, seeing as you asked, your spelling "is going fine", although I notice from your profile that you call yourself a cheif pilot!!
Au revoir
Last edited by Bomber ARIS; 13th Feb 2004 at 07:00.
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Fish,
As alluded to in an earlier post, the theory provider on the sunshine coast provides a very good easy to understand set of notes that most people with no previous knowledge can use. Plenty of on-going practise exams and a 1800 help line all seem to make it a worthwhile consideration.
Good luck
As alluded to in an earlier post, the theory provider on the sunshine coast provides a very good easy to understand set of notes that most people with no previous knowledge can use. Plenty of on-going practise exams and a 1800 help line all seem to make it a worthwhile consideration.
Good luck
Selfish
, old buddy
I believe this to be the finest helicopter forum in the world, due in no small part to the diversity of its contributors. IŽd hate to think anyone would hold back from posting through fear of incorrect spelling.
I am sure that FerociousFish appreciated feedback to his post, but as far as flying exams go, one could do a lot worse than the CASA CPLs. Having personally taken exams all over the world (CAA ATPL, FAA ATP, CASA ATPL/IREX, Transport Canada ATPL) I can tell you that there is much worse out there.
Now if you were talking about the IREX then I'd have to agree. With that son of a bitch, you guys have a real world beater!
By the way, if it's Microsoft Word that y'all are using then you have the option of 13 versions of the English language to chose from, including Australian English!!
I have no wish to be yet another pompous European (I believe Rotorheads has its quota) and so in the spirit of reconciliation, I give you a poem for you to share with those close to you on Valentine's Day
Roses are red,
Violets are green,
Open your legs,
And I'll fill you with cream.
Roses are straight,
Violets are twisted,
Bend over luv,
You're about to get fisted
Amen
, old buddyI believe this to be the finest helicopter forum in the world, due in no small part to the diversity of its contributors. IŽd hate to think anyone would hold back from posting through fear of incorrect spelling.
I am sure that FerociousFish appreciated feedback to his post, but as far as flying exams go, one could do a lot worse than the CASA CPLs. Having personally taken exams all over the world (CAA ATPL, FAA ATP, CASA ATPL/IREX, Transport Canada ATPL) I can tell you that there is much worse out there.
Now if you were talking about the IREX then I'd have to agree. With that son of a bitch, you guys have a real world beater!
By the way, if it's Microsoft Word that y'all are using then you have the option of 13 versions of the English language to chose from, including Australian English!!
I have no wish to be yet another pompous European (I believe Rotorheads has its quota) and so in the spirit of reconciliation, I give you a poem for you to share with those close to you on Valentine's Day
Roses are red,
Violets are green,
Open your legs,
And I'll fill you with cream.
Roses are straight,
Violets are twisted,
Bend over luv,
You're about to get fisted
Amen
However..............
Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rarely ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect in it's weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rarely ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect in it's weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.
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Bomber,
Yes my OFFICIAL title is cheif pilot however im not the type to go weilding it around, we all have ajob to do during the day and i think most of us like reading pprune for the entertainment value as much as the informative discussions.
When i passed my C.P interview my operations inspector picked me up on a spelling mistake! none the less it still didnt stop me from getting a near perfect result. big deal you may say!
anyway...can we stop the bickering at each other we are all supposed to be colleagues in the same industry that we love, lets face it its not for the money is it , its the pure love of flying helicopters!!!
goodnight, im on duty tommorow
Yes my OFFICIAL title is cheif pilot however im not the type to go weilding it around, we all have ajob to do during the day and i think most of us like reading pprune for the entertainment value as much as the informative discussions.
When i passed my C.P interview my operations inspector picked me up on a spelling mistake! none the less it still didnt stop me from getting a near perfect result. big deal you may say!
anyway...can we stop the bickering at each other we are all supposed to be colleagues in the same industry that we love, lets face it its not for the money is it , its the pure love of flying helicopters!!!
goodnight, im on duty tommorow
belly tank
I have no gripes with you being Chief Pilot. My only reason for referring to your title was to gently point out that the spelling was slightly off. (You had asked me how the spelling was going)
IŽm damn sure that if IŽd worked hard enough and long enough to become Chief Pilot then IŽd make sure I could spell it!!
We are all ambassadors for one another in this industry; how one helicopter pilot behaves determines how the rest are percieved. As helicopter pilots we are often viewed as a rag-tag bunch of second-class, cowboy aviators, but it's up to every man jack of us to raise our game and be professional about it.
Word
I have no gripes with you being Chief Pilot. My only reason for referring to your title was to gently point out that the spelling was slightly off. (You had asked me how the spelling was going)
IŽm damn sure that if IŽd worked hard enough and long enough to become Chief Pilot then IŽd make sure I could spell it!!
We are all ambassadors for one another in this industry; how one helicopter pilot behaves determines how the rest are percieved. As helicopter pilots we are often viewed as a rag-tag bunch of second-class, cowboy aviators, but it's up to every man jack of us to raise our game and be professional about it.
Word
I hate the IREX.
First crack: 79% (argh)
Second: 85%
Joined the elite ranks of the 3-5% who were passing at that time.
Worst exam on the small planet I have visited.
Considering our english past down there, I would wager the poms have a bunch of nasty ones themselves....
First crack: 79% (argh)
Second: 85%
Joined the elite ranks of the 3-5% who were passing at that time.
Worst exam on the small planet I have visited.
Considering our english past down there, I would wager the poms have a bunch of nasty ones themselves....
