Can you fly G-reg aircraft in the UK on an FAA licence?
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Flying G-reg aircraft in the UK on an FAA PPL?
Some US schools advertise that an FAA PPL is valid for flying G-reg aircraft in UK airspace and you don't need a UK or JAA licence.
Sounds too good to be true.
If it is, it's going to make a lot of people who want to fly helicopters very happy. US training is much cheaper, the FAA require less exams (none of the crap we have to learn and never use) and FAA Private licenses are easier/cheaper to keep current.
The big question is - Is it true?
Anyone know?
Sounds too good to be true.
If it is, it's going to make a lot of people who want to fly helicopters very happy. US training is much cheaper, the FAA require less exams (none of the crap we have to learn and never use) and FAA Private licenses are easier/cheaper to keep current.
The big question is - Is it true?
Anyone know?
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I understand that it is legally true BUT
in practice not many UK schools will rent you a hele without a lot of caveats, probably including further training/check-outs/continuation training/area famil/maybe even requring study of UK Air Law Blah, Blah. ( Why - well if you have just a bare US PPL(H) in order to keep you and the aircraft safe and to avoid complaints from ATC etc.)
If you are talking about buying your own, then why not set up a US trust and use N-Reg?
in practice not many UK schools will rent you a hele without a lot of caveats, probably including further training/check-outs/continuation training/area famil/maybe even requring study of UK Air Law Blah, Blah. ( Why - well if you have just a bare US PPL(H) in order to keep you and the aircraft safe and to avoid complaints from ATC etc.)
If you are talking about buying your own, then why not set up a US trust and use N-Reg?
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Hi I ve done it with no problems.
But as Helinut says depends on the school - they (understandably) don't want you spending your money in the US!
If you are going to do it - try the CAA approved school in Florida and you ll have the best of both worlds.
PM and I ll tell you the name of a school resonably local to Sussex who are/were happy to SFH to FAA pilots subject to a checkride.
PW
But as Helinut says depends on the school - they (understandably) don't want you spending your money in the US!
If you are going to do it - try the CAA approved school in Florida and you ll have the best of both worlds.
PM and I ll tell you the name of a school resonably local to Sussex who are/were happy to SFH to FAA pilots subject to a checkride.
PW
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Helinut
Do any UK schools allow a 'stranger' UK PPL to self-fly hire on production of licence/logbook without a thorough check flight? If not, there's no difference there between CAA/JAA and FAA PPL holders.
And, if a PPL is new to flying in that area, don't they require an area famil flight with an instructor? Again, if so, no difference.
I think, without checking, that passing the Air Law exam is compulsory. It would make sense since it's about the ANO and Rules of the Air Regs.
UK schools probably would prefer UK students to do their PPLs with them and, as you and pilotwolf say, they probably vary in their attitudes to FAA trained PPLs. But, just like the rest of us, schools need to make money. I wonder how many schools would turn away (or discourage by unreasonable obstacles) what could be a regular source of SFH income, provided an FAA trained PPL is competent when checked - and can legally fly on his FAA licence.
If a school imposed unreasonable conditions, the potential customer would be likely to go somewhere else. There's plenty of competition out there and it might be argued that a school which imposes unreasonable conditions just because someone went abroad to train deserves to miss out.
I suppose the crucial questions are:
(As Datcon asked) Is an FAA PPL licence holder permitted to fly G-reg aircraft in UK airspace on his/her FAA licence?
Does the CAA impose any additional requirements?
If so, what are they?
Do any UK schools allow a 'stranger' UK PPL to self-fly hire on production of licence/logbook without a thorough check flight? If not, there's no difference there between CAA/JAA and FAA PPL holders.
And, if a PPL is new to flying in that area, don't they require an area famil flight with an instructor? Again, if so, no difference.
I think, without checking, that passing the Air Law exam is compulsory. It would make sense since it's about the ANO and Rules of the Air Regs.
UK schools probably would prefer UK students to do their PPLs with them and, as you and pilotwolf say, they probably vary in their attitudes to FAA trained PPLs. But, just like the rest of us, schools need to make money. I wonder how many schools would turn away (or discourage by unreasonable obstacles) what could be a regular source of SFH income, provided an FAA trained PPL is competent when checked - and can legally fly on his FAA licence.
If a school imposed unreasonable conditions, the potential customer would be likely to go somewhere else. There's plenty of competition out there and it might be argued that a school which imposes unreasonable conditions just because someone went abroad to train deserves to miss out.
I suppose the crucial questions are:
(As Datcon asked) Is an FAA PPL licence holder permitted to fly G-reg aircraft in UK airspace on his/her FAA licence?
Does the CAA impose any additional requirements?
If so, what are they?
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heliport
the caa do impose additional requirements read the last para.
copy of a letter sent by the caa
Secretary and Legal Adviser's Office
FLYING A UK REGISTERED AIRCRAFT WITH AN FAA LICENCE
Article 21 of the Air Navigation Order 2000 provides, in essence, that in order to fly a UK registered aircraft one must hold an appropriate licence either granted by the CAA or granted by a foreign authority and validated under the ANO.
Any licence granted by a State which is a member of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (which is to say just about every State in the world including the United States) is automatically deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft subject to the following restrictions.
The holder of a foreign licence is not automatically entitled to:
• fly for the purpose of public tranSfJQft
• fly for the purpose of aerial work
• receive remuneration for services as a pilot
• fly in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument
Flight Rules or
• give any instruction in flying.
To do any of these things, an express written validation of the foreign licence from the CAA is required.
there is also a other point to take into account
a faa licenced pilot with a faa current medical is not allowed to fly in uk airspace if he is not able to pass a jar/uk medical
thats a new one
the caa do impose additional requirements read the last para.
copy of a letter sent by the caa
Secretary and Legal Adviser's Office
FLYING A UK REGISTERED AIRCRAFT WITH AN FAA LICENCE
Article 21 of the Air Navigation Order 2000 provides, in essence, that in order to fly a UK registered aircraft one must hold an appropriate licence either granted by the CAA or granted by a foreign authority and validated under the ANO.
Any licence granted by a State which is a member of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (which is to say just about every State in the world including the United States) is automatically deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft subject to the following restrictions.
The holder of a foreign licence is not automatically entitled to:
• fly for the purpose of public tranSfJQft
• fly for the purpose of aerial work
• receive remuneration for services as a pilot
• fly in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument
Flight Rules or
• give any instruction in flying.
To do any of these things, an express written validation of the foreign licence from the CAA is required.
there is also a other point to take into account
a faa licenced pilot with a faa current medical is not allowed to fly in uk airspace if he is not able to pass a jar/uk medical
thats a new one
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a faa licenced pilot with a faa current medical is not allowed to fly in uk airspace if he is not able to pass a jar/uk medical
Or pilots that have in the passed had heart problems that the FAA allow (and are flying jets) and the CAA do not? They would not pass a JAR, but they are landing at UK international airports in flights originating in the USA.
Or am I mis-understanding it?
S.
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Re Medical...
I ve actually got FAA CPL but use it as PPL priviledges only in the UK.
Does this mean I have to actually pass a JAA medical before I can fly?
Now worried!!!
I ve actually got FAA CPL but use it as PPL priviledges only in the UK.
Does this mean I have to actually pass a JAA medical before I can fly?
Now worried!!!
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Not sure about this but I think it depends on what class of FAA medical you've got. An FAA Class 3 doesn't comply with JAR or something like that. If you've got an FAA Class 1 or 2, I don't think there's a problem.
Don't most of the restrictions on FAA PPLs that MD mentions also apply to CAA/JAA PPL's as well?
Don't most of the restrictions on FAA PPLs that MD mentions also apply to CAA/JAA PPL's as well?
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Sarik, the difference is the registration marks on the aircraft. While flying an N-registered aircraft, for instance, they are following the FAR's. This is common in cross-border traffic.
It changes when you want to fly an aircraft registered in another country. This is when you need to start satisfying the appropriate regulations applicable to the nation of registration.
As an example, when flying South African registered aircraft elsewhere on the continent, I required an SA validation (Air Law exams) and they also accepted my Canadian medical.
Now, in Nigeria, I required the same exams but also a Nigerian medical in order to get the validation.
Hope that helps.
It changes when you want to fly an aircraft registered in another country. This is when you need to start satisfying the appropriate regulations applicable to the nation of registration.
As an example, when flying South African registered aircraft elsewhere on the continent, I required an SA validation (Air Law exams) and they also accepted my Canadian medical.
Now, in Nigeria, I required the same exams but also a Nigerian medical in order to get the validation.
Hope that helps.
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When I returned from US with my fresh PPL was told I needed the following:
As the PPL is only 35hrs out there I needed Dual Instruction to bring me up to 45HRS and familiarise me with the area and UK ATC procedures. This was probably a sales pitch rather anything else but was useful anyway.
UK Radio licence
UK medical AND valid FAA medical
Pass JAR law exam.
Maintain valid SFAR 73 if flying Robbies
Maintain valid FAR 61.56 bi-annual flight review, which might actually be annual if you have less than 100hrs. I think.
This then allowed me to fly Day VFR within the UK - nb not France etc.
The FAA PPL permits night flying, terrifyingly enough and this privelege can not be used in UK.
Sounds like aggro but at least you don't have to muck around with type ratings and have an excuse to go back to sunny states every so often.
CHeers.
As the PPL is only 35hrs out there I needed Dual Instruction to bring me up to 45HRS and familiarise me with the area and UK ATC procedures. This was probably a sales pitch rather anything else but was useful anyway.
UK Radio licence
UK medical AND valid FAA medical
Pass JAR law exam.
Maintain valid SFAR 73 if flying Robbies
Maintain valid FAR 61.56 bi-annual flight review, which might actually be annual if you have less than 100hrs. I think.
This then allowed me to fly Day VFR within the UK - nb not France etc.
The FAA PPL permits night flying, terrifyingly enough and this privelege can not be used in UK.
Sounds like aggro but at least you don't have to muck around with type ratings and have an excuse to go back to sunny states every so often.
CHeers.
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sorry sarik and helo teacher
the caa can stop you flying if they want too, even if you are flying a n reg heli with a faa licence and faa medical c 3 if they think you cannot pass a class 2 jar licence
so if you cant pass a jar 2 medical you cant use your faa medical /licence priveledges in uk airspace , that is fact they have done just that to me
totally p***ed off
steve
the caa can stop you flying if they want too, even if you are flying a n reg heli with a faa licence and faa medical c 3 if they think you cannot pass a class 2 jar licence
so if you cant pass a jar 2 medical you cant use your faa medical /licence priveledges in uk airspace , that is fact they have done just that to me
totally p***ed off
steve
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This question of a medical came up some while ago in my experience too. A very determined UK guy wanted to get a PPL(H). He had a medical history that prevented him from getting a UK (pre-JAR) medical, but his aviation medcial adviser was able to give him an FAA pass.
He then tried to learn to fly under the FAA system (in the UK). The CAA got wind of it, and they banned him in the way that you indicate. It surpised me at the time, since FAA are full ICAO compliant - it would seem to me to be a bit hard to enforce too.
Heliport:
My point in raising all the flying school caveats was to avoid anyone thinking that you could just walk in and do the same with an FAA PPL as a JAR/UK one. In my experience schools would require more hoops for a junior FAA PPL than a UK equivalent.
You would need to do Air Law to convert to a JAR/UK licence, but it is not a CAA requirement to fly under an FAA licence in the UK. I know that some UK flying schools used to require the UK Air Law exam, cos I ran one of the schools that did. The logic of that was that Air Law in the UK is significantly different from in the USA, and I did not want one of "my" aircraft getting lost in controlled airspace with ATC moaning at me. It involved the pilot being taken through UK Air Law (at no cost) by an instructor and then taking the exam (at no cost). If he/she was not interested enough to take the time, then we were content to do without the business.
He then tried to learn to fly under the FAA system (in the UK). The CAA got wind of it, and they banned him in the way that you indicate. It surpised me at the time, since FAA are full ICAO compliant - it would seem to me to be a bit hard to enforce too.
Heliport:
My point in raising all the flying school caveats was to avoid anyone thinking that you could just walk in and do the same with an FAA PPL as a JAR/UK one. In my experience schools would require more hoops for a junior FAA PPL than a UK equivalent.
You would need to do Air Law to convert to a JAR/UK licence, but it is not a CAA requirement to fly under an FAA licence in the UK. I know that some UK flying schools used to require the UK Air Law exam, cos I ran one of the schools that did. The logic of that was that Air Law in the UK is significantly different from in the USA, and I did not want one of "my" aircraft getting lost in controlled airspace with ATC moaning at me. It involved the pilot being taken through UK Air Law (at no cost) by an instructor and then taking the exam (at no cost). If he/she was not interested enough to take the time, then we were content to do without the business.
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So, from what people are saying here, it's beginning to look as if what Datcon has been told isn't "too good to be true" after all.
Helinut
Understood. I was just trying to summarise where we'd got to so far in answering the question. Your input is useful as someone who knows about it from UK schools' SFH side of things. Most of us probably don't.
I was suggesting most UK schools wouldn't impose unreasonable conditions on SFH to FAA PPLs. I can see the sense of doing the Air Law even if it isn't a legal requirement - no pun intended
and can well see why you wouldn't want them flying your helicopters if they weren't prepared to do that.
Whirlycopter
A PPL who's done it.
If you're flying on an FAA PPL, is it a CAA requirement that you pass a CAA medical if you already have a Class 1 or Class 2 FAA medical?
Also, do you have to go back to America every two years to do your Flight Review? That sounds worse than I meant it to. I'm not suggesting 'having' to go to the US is terrible - far from it! What I really meant was can you do it with an FAA licensed/approved check pilot in the UK if you want to?
Was 'No flights to France' your Club rule or is that the law?
MD 600
Very sorry to hear about the problems over your medical Steve. Hope you're able to get the JAR Class 2 in the not too distant future and be back flying again soon.
Am I right in thinking that if someone has an FAA Class 1 or 2, there's no problem?
Very interesting thread - I'm learning a lot
Heliport
Helinut
Understood. I was just trying to summarise where we'd got to so far in answering the question. Your input is useful as someone who knows about it from UK schools' SFH side of things. Most of us probably don't.
I was suggesting most UK schools wouldn't impose unreasonable conditions on SFH to FAA PPLs. I can see the sense of doing the Air Law even if it isn't a legal requirement - no pun intended
and can well see why you wouldn't want them flying your helicopters if they weren't prepared to do that. Whirlycopter
A PPL who's done it.
If you're flying on an FAA PPL, is it a CAA requirement that you pass a CAA medical if you already have a Class 1 or Class 2 FAA medical?
Also, do you have to go back to America every two years to do your Flight Review? That sounds worse than I meant it to. I'm not suggesting 'having' to go to the US is terrible - far from it! What I really meant was can you do it with an FAA licensed/approved check pilot in the UK if you want to?
Was 'No flights to France' your Club rule or is that the law?
MD 600
Very sorry to hear about the problems over your medical Steve. Hope you're able to get the JAR Class 2 in the not too distant future and be back flying again soon.
Am I right in thinking that if someone has an FAA Class 1 or 2, there's no problem?
Very interesting thread - I'm learning a lot
Heliport
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heliport
no it seems from their letter and the ano that any one failing a jaa medical canalso be stopped from flying in uk airspace regardless of icao medical class wish it was that easy
steve
whirly
theres no need to go to the states for your biannual as any faa cfi can do it in fact there is a examiner in the uk for ppl/cpl/cfi/ and maybe more
steve
no it seems from their letter and the ano that any one failing a jaa medical canalso be stopped from flying in uk airspace regardless of icao medical class wish it was that easy
steve
whirly
theres no need to go to the states for your biannual as any faa cfi can do it in fact there is a examiner in the uk for ppl/cpl/cfi/ and maybe more
steve
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MD600
I'm probably being slow so bear with me.
Are FAA PPLs required to undergo and pass a JAA medical in order to fly in UK airspace?
I can see they'd have to if they wanted a CAA licence as well, or wanted to covert from FAA to CAA. And, if they failed the medical, I can understand how the CAA might react.
Unless things have changed under JAR, PPLs in the UK don't need a Class 1 medical, only a Class 2. So if someone (for example) can get through an FAA Class 1, but only a CAA Class 2, they can still fly as a PPL?
If someone can't get through a CAA Class 2, then it's terrible for that person and I'm not being unsympathetic to you - far from it - but it's difficult to say the CAA's being unreasonable.
If a PPL can pass the required FAA medical standard but not the CAA's, I can see the argument that the CAA standard for private flying might be too high, but that's a different point.
Is that what you mean?
I'm probably being slow so bear with me.
Are FAA PPLs required to undergo and pass a JAA medical in order to fly in UK airspace?
I can see they'd have to if they wanted a CAA licence as well, or wanted to covert from FAA to CAA. And, if they failed the medical, I can understand how the CAA might react.
Unless things have changed under JAR, PPLs in the UK don't need a Class 1 medical, only a Class 2. So if someone (for example) can get through an FAA Class 1, but only a CAA Class 2, they can still fly as a PPL?
If someone can't get through a CAA Class 2, then it's terrible for that person and I'm not being unsympathetic to you - far from it - but it's difficult to say the CAA's being unreasonable.
If a PPL can pass the required FAA medical standard but not the CAA's, I can see the argument that the CAA standard for private flying might be too high, but that's a different point.
Is that what you mean?
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Interesting! I was told by a Doctor at the Gatwick Medical Division of the CAA that if I got an FAA license [PPL(H)] I would be able to fly in UK in 'G' registered aircraft under the ICAO regulations and would not officially need any other requirements. Flight schools may wish to impose Airlaw tests on you, etc but that would be htier requirement and not the CAA's.
I now have an FAA PPL(H), an FAA Class 3 medical with a SODA (Statement of Demonstrated Ability) which effectively means that my disability which prevents me from obtaining a straight forward medical is discounted because the FAA have satisfied themselves that my disability does not affect my ability to fly. I had to do a separate flight test with an FAA employed examiner to get this but it is effective forever unless my disability changes.
A friend of mine has checked with the insurers of his helicopters in his flight school and they are happy to accept me flying his Gregistered craft on my FAA license without any additional requirements.
However, I will check all this again and let you know. Also the
FAA are happy for people to train for FAA ppl(h) in the UK on G reg craft. I have had this confirmed by them.
I now have an FAA PPL(H), an FAA Class 3 medical with a SODA (Statement of Demonstrated Ability) which effectively means that my disability which prevents me from obtaining a straight forward medical is discounted because the FAA have satisfied themselves that my disability does not affect my ability to fly. I had to do a separate flight test with an FAA employed examiner to get this but it is effective forever unless my disability changes.
A friend of mine has checked with the insurers of his helicopters in his flight school and they are happy to accept me flying his Gregistered craft on my FAA license without any additional requirements.
However, I will check all this again and let you know. Also the
FAA are happy for people to train for FAA ppl(h) in the UK on G reg craft. I have had this confirmed by them.
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Also the FAA are happy for people to train for FAA ppl(h) in the UK on G reg craft. I have had this confirmed by them.
Unless you got medical reasons, why pay UK prices to get an American licence?
You might as well do a British PPL if your paying British costs.
Ain't the whole point of getting an FAA PPL to save big bucks by doing your training in America?
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re can't f;y in france
Sorry my earlier post was not clear. The point is that you cannot fly a G reg abroad on an FAA licence. With the FAA ticket within JAA land you can fly an aircraft within the borders of the country in which the aircraft is registered. However you cannot cross borders with an aircraft.
You are quite right re Biannual flight review. I did mine whilst on hols in South Africa - just need and FAA instructor to check you out - location not important.
I suppose though that this all theoretical until somthing goes wrong or until I send my logbook off to Gatwick to get my JAA CPL and they tell me all my P1 time is invalid as I don't have any type ratings and therefore couldn't possibly have flown anything without supervision, an issue that I understand some folk have had following doing the LA traffic watch thing. We will see shortly!
Insurance wise as I fly my own machine, pilots are 'as approved by the insured'. Despite occasional reservations I approved myself and that was that.
You are quite right re Biannual flight review. I did mine whilst on hols in South Africa - just need and FAA instructor to check you out - location not important.
I suppose though that this all theoretical until somthing goes wrong or until I send my logbook off to Gatwick to get my JAA CPL and they tell me all my P1 time is invalid as I don't have any type ratings and therefore couldn't possibly have flown anything without supervision, an issue that I understand some folk have had following doing the LA traffic watch thing. We will see shortly!
Insurance wise as I fly my own machine, pilots are 'as approved by the insured'. Despite occasional reservations I approved myself and that was that.