Questions about obtaining an Instrument Rating

[paco]

Thanks for the info - guess I'll do my Canadian one first, as I am exempt the training because of my UK FW IR, then I can become exempt some of the UK heli, and so on and on. Daft, isn't it?

phil

[Heliport]

Yet another nail in the British aviation coffin?

[Rotorbike]

The nail in the British coffin comes from cost and not from any JAA regulation.

Surely you don't believe that someone that has an ICAO instrument rating should have to complete the same 50 hour flight course as someone that hasn't got a rating already??

If so, maybe the CAA should give checkrides at Heathrow airport to US, Australian, South African etc with non JAA instrument tickets.

Paco, if you have a CAA fixed wing instrument then I believe under JAA it is a 10 hour add-on for the helicopter one.

[buttline]

It does seem unfair that most of the fixed wing IR course is done on single engines with a multi conversion at the end but JAR heli IRs have to be on twins (with the exception of Bristow's 206).

Why does the JAA consider a single engine to be ok for IR training in fixed wing but not helicopters? Doesn't make sense.

If the policy is extended to helicopters (which we don't know yet) it may actually increase business for UK FTOs in that it puts an IR(H) much more within reach of individuals.

Also, it will reduce the training costs for North Sea and other public transport operators, although things may start to follow the fixed wing world where you're expected to have a CPL/IR before you start applying for public transport jobs.

[The Nr Fairy]

buttline :

My understanding is that a fair chunk of s/e f/w is certified for flight in IFR, if not in icing.

Any s/e helicopters you're aware of ? The problem as I understand it is lack of stability - Whirlybird wrote a 160 word piece on the problem - and the Bristow 206 has SAS in it.

So, why can't we just use an ex-mil Gazelle

[Rotorbike]

Buttline

I believe you are incorrect as one of the UK JAA authorized schools uses a R22 for instrument flying 'consolidation' during it's combined (f)ATPL(H) IR training.

The JAA regulations state "Instrument instruction" including at least 15 hours in multi engined aircraft.

[buttline]

Rotorbike:

I didn't know that. I thought Bristow's 206 was the only SE certified and then only because it has SAS and the backup instruments.

Which school offers it? ([email protected] if you don't want to advertise).

Thanks

[Heliport]

Rotornut

"Surely you don't believe that someone that has an ICAO instrument rating should have to complete the same 50 hour flight course as someone that hasn't got a rating already??"

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. It's the CAA's silly attitude which is so damaging, and will have the effect of driving people elsewhere to train.

"... maybe the CAA should give checkrides at Heathrow airport to US, Australian, South African etc with non JAA instrument tickets."

Don't give them ideas!
It must be a constant source of amazement to the CAA that non-CAA/JAA ATPLs somehow manage to fly safely across the world and land safely at LHR - even in cloud!

[The Missing Piece]

JAA ATPL and IR.

I have heard that pilots who have just completed their JAA ATPL must obtain a Instrument Rating within 3 years or they have to resit their exams.

Is this true and if so how to general aviation pilots who operate VFR only fare under this ruling?

Does anyone know of anybody that has been affected by this?

[rotordk]

"must obtain a Instrument Rating within 3 years or they have to resit their exams."

only if they wish to obtain their IFR rating. Keyword in the "IFR" enviroment is recency, and that includes exams that are not 10 years old !

"Is this true and if so how to general aviation pilots who operate VFR only fare under this ruling?"

It is true ! And VFR pilot just keep it that way....VFR !

"Does anyone know of anybody that has been affected by this?"

Yup, and they had to retake their ATPL exams to get their IR exam up to date ( since there wasn't anybody offering an IR exam only...go figure ).

Must be good, since people are willing to do it twice ( or they didn't look a the experation date on their exampapers!!!!!)

[Watchoutbelow]

Now if that doesn't scare anyone who is thinking of doing a JAA ATP(H) I don't know what does.

Your gonna have to add the expense of a JAA instrument rating into your costs, also remember there is only 1 single engine IFR certified trainer that is already nearly 40 years old, once that goes, all Instrument training will have to be done on a twin engine!

Is there any future in Heli training in Europe, people just won't be able to afford to do it privately, sounds like the military is fast becoming the only option of getting your foot in the door.

[Hedski]

Mind you, that SE IR is as expensive and in some cases more so than doing IR with operators that use SE heli's/sim initially and ME for the latter stages! Not as much of a shake up as you might think!

[rotordk]

Watchoutbelow said: "Now if that doesn't scare anyone who is thinking of doing a JAA ATP(H) I don't know what does."

You still need a min. 350 hours in a multicrew environment to meet the requirements for an ATPL, and that's all IFR anyway.....

So why not line your ducks up and TAKE the IR when you still remember the practical differences between MOCA and MORA!!
Why do people take an exam ( theory ), and not following up on the practical side ( flying ), and then b*tch and moan about it afterwards........shouldn't they read the requirements BEFORE they started !!
Most driver licenses in the EU has an expiration date on the theory exams.............for a little comparison :-)

[Watchoutbelow]

RotarDk,
This three year validity thing is in very small print.
It used to be ten years.
Try and find a flight school that will tell you this until your midway through the programme.

[rotordk]

It's all neatly printed in JAR-FCL 2.495 with standard size letters.

[Watchoutbelow]

Hedski,

What is the cheapest price of that you know of and where?
Any info would be appreciated, PM if you want.

Rotardk, I never made a habit of studying JAR OPS, unless it was absoloutely necessary, call me old fashioned.

[Martin1234]

The problem is that it's hard to find a training organisation that offer an IR course seperately.

It would have been so much easier if you could take the exams you wanted just by contacting your local aviation authority. It's ridiculous that you need to take "an approved course".

[pilotwolf]

Depends on if you are looking for JAA or FAA...

There was a thread on it fairly recently on here - JAA is twins only?

If you are looking for a FAA IR then drop me a PM as I know someone who will do it for you here.

PW

[Slotty]

For JAA you're looking at between £28K and £35K I'm told.

Bristows are the cheapest I believe as they can offer an IR in a B206, they have grandfather rights.

Cabair Cranfield and SAS Gloucester use twins which piles on the pennies.

[Helinut]

Don't blame JAA for the twin requirement for the IR - this is a CAA imposition in the UK. Some of the JAA countries allow single engine IFR (for private flights anyway)