993RS

I'm converting an FAA ATP to a JAA ATP at the present time and would like to return home to England and fly for the Police and or EMS. Can someone give me an idea of the compensation I should expect?

Also I have 4500 hrs. 1600 of which is S-76 EMS IFR in the states with six years experience. I have a civilian back ground, is this going to be a disadvantage?

Thanks,

993RS

MightyGem

Starting pay will vary depending whether you are directly employed by the police, or through a contractor like PremiAir or PAS(Police Aviation Services). I think that there are about half a dozen Forces who employ direct.

The contractors pay around £39-41000, with the direct employed getting maybe 4000 more. This is all for the Police. Not sure what the EMS guys get paid, but I wouldn't have thought that it's much different.

PremiAir(used to be Operational Support Services/McAlpine Aviation services) are currently advertising for a couple of pilots. You can contact the Chief pilot on 01895 830930.

Your civilian background would not be a problem.

Letsby Avenue

Hmmm... Some Direct Employed are on 40K - Time to look around methinks!

Helipolarbear

Unless you are in a position to operate multi-crew, I think you'll have a tough time 'converting to JAA ATPL!
Attendance at an FTO is mandatory now. Suggest you refer to FCL 2 (JAA). If you can get a job flying corporate on an FAA reg in the UK, chances are it'll pay alot more than Police/HEMS.
Military background IS desireable...and you are up against alot of UK Forces 'Chaps'.
Good Luck with your plans.

MightyGem

The supply of british mil pilots is not what it used to be. Due a combination of low hours and monetary incentives not to leave the forces.

Letsby, so direct employment doesn't pay that well then?

Thomas coupling

Thats unusual for Premiair, I heard their pay packets were quite reasonable. £37 is a paltry sum, but no doubt someone will take it - monkeys and peanuts!

Even though the mil pipeline is slacking, there are still a few swilling around. Getting a foothold in this macro climate of an industry is still difficult.

IF you've got a good flying background, you'll get in, then after some consolidation, you can manouevre. But it's still quite a haul.

Good luck to you. And remember, when the time comes show your face not just your CV

Helinut

Premiar's "fixed" salaries may be a bit variable, if the previous threads are anything to go by ..............

There was a thread on police pilot salaries on the European ASU Forum a while back, for those who can gain access.

Non ex-mil pilots make up about 10% of police pilots these days. At the end of the day, the way you do the job is what matters, of course. Some outfits do exercise a strong preference for ex-mil pilots - on the whole the police officers judge on what they find (in my experience).

PurplePitot

Mind You.. You can get a Detached 4 Bed House, complete with Burglars for 50K in West Mercia.......

handysnaks

Contrary to what some of the contributors to this thread suggest, 37 K is not unusually low, it is about the going start rate for UK police/ems pilots who are NOT directly employed. Whether you regard it as paltry or not is up to you. For a lot of units now, the Civ/Mil debate is over, the issue will be (assuming your experience is adequate and yours looks good enough at first reading) are you good for the unit and equally important, is the unit good for you. One other question might be, "Oh, you're not waiting for the fixed wing market to pick up are you?"
Over the coming years an IR may be more and more important, especially for ems work. The downside is that with the contraction that seems to be happening on the N Sea the UK heli market is stagnating. ( So thank goodness all those highly paid mil chaps and chappesses are staying put )

tbc

Thomas coupling.

".... but no doubt someone will take it - monkeys and peanuts!"

You do yourself no favours by calling some of your colleagues in the industry monkeys!!

I have been fortunate to have flown with quite a few guys in the emergency services industry in the UK over the last 5 years or so, and irrespective of who actually pays their wages, I have found them to be sustantially better qualified and professionally committed than the label you give them suggests.

Thomas coupling

Tbc:

I'm starting this year with a less confrontational approach to some of these threads on Pprune! Perhaps taking a leaf out of Pprune No1 Fan's 'new look' book!!! Can't guarantee how long it'll last though, especially if this forum gets boring

I generalised when I mentioned monkeys/peanuts. I do not wish to denegrate my poorly paid comrades
You know as well as I do, that low salaries attract less applicants (the better qualified guys begin to realise there are richer pickings elsewhere). Therefore, the choice for that vacancy is limited. By default therefore, the employer ends up with limited options from a 'generally' poorer standard of pilot.

If it wasn't for those mil pilots who apply (knowing their supplemental pensions can buffer them from pathetic salaries), then God only knows what standards we would be wallowing in now.

Look at the direct employment sector and take stock of pilots' real worth - Look after your employees and they (in general) will look after the company.

PS:

Several years ago, a well known service provider of pilots put forward a recommend to the Home Office to lower the entry standard for police pilots, because: "there was a shortage of supply". Luckily some of us got wind of it, so it never saw the light of day. This was a blatant attempt by a commercial specialist pulling the wool over their naive customers. Their aim: lower the standards, more pilots apply, supply now greater than demand: salaries can now be lowered The basic building blocks of economics

Let's keep it in perspective, and tell me if I'm wrong here:

Either:

Police helicopter pilots believe they are worthy of a professional status (equivalent to that of a doctor/accountant/solicitor with many years experience) and should be recompensed accordingly. £37000 is less than that earned by the petrol tanker driver who delivers here monthly).

OR,

Let's get real, folks. At the end of the day, we are white van man (albeit in a mercedes van!) in disguise, doing a laborious and often repetitive job (for some), but still think we are top gun from our mil background, but just can't justify it anymore. In that case the salary says it all!

What do you really think you are worth out there?????
[Not you tbc we all know what you are worth ]

Why should there be a discrepancy between contract and direct employment salaries, which is the real world?

handysnaks

"Let's keep it in perspective, and tell me if I'm wrong here:"
OK TC, you're wrong!
But I'm not stupid enough to explain why on this means.
(alright, I'm more than stupid enough but I still won't).
However, if you want to discuss it at the other place, feel free!

Thomas coupling

Handy: have u been drinking? What on earth are you on about?

handysnaks

TC have I been drinking ? no I haven't.
What on earth am I on about? You asked whether you were wrong and I said yes. Now, only oscar has the answer

cyclic

TC

Can you tell me where I can earn more than the meagre sum of £37000? I'm quite intrigued as the last direct employ job I saw had a starting salary of £40000 which is admittedly more than 37K but knock 40% off that 3 grand and there ain't much difference.

SilsoeSid

tc, you are wrong, for various reasons,however,

You remind me of the Harry Enfield character who always said, " I seem to have considerably more money than you"

When you said,
"I do not wish to denegrate my poorly paid comrades",
You really sound pathetic.


"Why should there be a discrepancy between contract and direct employment salaries?"
More homework required I think.

Remember, when you get yourself in a hole,
Stop digging.

Thomas coupling

Cyclic: sorry isn't the 37000 taxed at 40% also?????

Silsoe, presumably u r a contract pilot too?

When did you join this industry, what were you on then, what r u on now? Don't tell me: diddly squat.

Lemming.

SilsoeSid

tc,

STOP DIGGING!
For info about income tax try:
http://www.paypershop.com/news-cat/inctax-trat.html

Basically
From 6 April 2003,
the threshold up to which the starter rate of tax applies and from which the basic rate of tax applies increases from £1,920 to £1,960
the threshold up to which the basic rate of tax applies and from which the higher rate of tax applies increases from £29,900 to £30,500.

So the answer to the question to cyclic is NO!

I take it you are in the business for the money only ?
(was it the only business you could get in to?)

SS

p.s In case you didn't know, the lemming thing is only a myth. Try reading Attenborough.

Thomas coupling

Swings and roundabaouts:

Bigger basic means bigger pension...(final salary)

Oh, I also forgot - contractors don't pay a decent pension either do they

I'm in the business of getting just remuneration for suitably qualified professionals (at the moment)...and winning.

Don't let the side down by supporting low pay...please. Some of us have come a long way.

SilsoeSid

tc,

Apart from the tax issue, something else you are wrong about that you may like to read, to prevent future insults that don't really 'cut it' ;

Lemmings are a kind of short-tailed vole, a mouse-like rodent that favors tundra and open grasslands. Three kinds are found in Alaska, including the collared lemming, the only rodent that turns white in winter.

In 1958 Walt Disney produced "White Wilderness," part of the studio's "True Life Adventure" series. "White Wilderness" featured a segment on lemmings, detailing their strange compulsion to commit mass suicide.

According to a 1983 investigation by Canadian Broadcasting Corp. producer Brian Vallee, the lemming scenes were faked. The lemmings supposedly committing mass suicide by leaping into the ocean were actually thrown off a cliff by the Disney filmmakers. The epic "lemming migration" was staged using careful editing, tight camera angles and a few dozen lemmings running on snow covered lazy-Susan-style turntable.

"White Wilderness" was filmed in Alberta, Canada, a landlocked province, and not on location in lemmings' natural habitat. About 20 lemming species are found in the circumpolar north - but evidently not in that area of Alberta. So Disney staff bought lemmings from Inuit children a couple provinces away in Manitoba and staged the whole sequence.

Lemming populations fluctuate enormously based on predators, food, climate and other factors. Under ideal conditions, in a single year a population of voles can increase by a factor of 10. When they've exhausted the local food supply, they disperse, as do moose, beaver and many other animals.

Lemmings can swim and will cross bodies of water in their quest for greener pastures. Sometimes they drown. Dispersal and accidental death are a far cry from the instinctive, deliberate mass suicide depicted in "White Wilderness," but Hibbler explains that life is tough in the lemmings' "weird world of frozen chaos." The voice-over implies that lemming populations take the plunge every seven to 10 years to alleviate overpopulation.

"What people see is essentially mass dispersal," said zoologist Gordon Jarrell, an expert in small mammals with the University of Alaska Fairbanks. "Sometimes it's pretty directional. The classic example is in the Scandinavian mountains, where (lemmings) have been dramatically observed. They will come to a body of water and be temporarily stopped, and eventually they'll build up along the shore so dense and they will swim across.

Jarrell said when people learn that he works with lemmings, the mass suicide issue often comes up.

"It's a frequent question," he said " 'Do they really kill themselves?' No. The answer is unequivocal. No, they don't."

edukashun is a grate fing.

So there!