Helicopter Fire-fighting (Merged threads)
Earl....
Will try to put something together in the next day or so..... My bed is calling me.....
In the meantime, here is a link to a blog I keep of firefighting with a helicopter in the US. I am "G-man", there is also "Mike", who flies "Panaca Jane", an Astar on contract in Nevada. You will also see "Soccermom", who is a smokejumper pilot with the BLM, she flies the "White minivan"...all of us have threads on here....
The Adventures of LaFawnduh---A Firefighting Helicopter
Gordy
Mods....although I have linked to another site---tis not advertising....
Will try to put something together in the next day or so..... My bed is calling me.....
In the meantime, here is a link to a blog I keep of firefighting with a helicopter in the US. I am "G-man", there is also "Mike", who flies "Panaca Jane", an Astar on contract in Nevada. You will also see "Soccermom", who is a smokejumper pilot with the BLM, she flies the "White minivan"...all of us have threads on here....
The Adventures of LaFawnduh---A Firefighting Helicopter
Gordy
Mods....although I have linked to another site---tis not advertising....
Last edited by Gordy; 7th Oct 2010 at 06:10. Reason: Added link--which I hope is OK
Dear Moscovite...
That is true,
but there is certain disadvantages of that old (now non existing) solution...like:
- obsolete Mi6
- short use of tank, continuous stream
- cannot shot horizontally because of own helicopter downdraft
- efficient range is limited in real life it is like piss on fire...
All that is resolved with new system... and EMERCOM (MČS) will
be proud user....
PS Main designer of new system on Ka32 was on board of FF Mi6 during Chernobil times
That is true,
but there is certain disadvantages of that old (now non existing) solution...like:
- obsolete Mi6
- short use of tank, continuous stream
- cannot shot horizontally because of own helicopter downdraft
- efficient range is limited in real life it is like piss on fire...
All that is resolved with new system... and EMERCOM (MČS) will
be proud user....
PS Main designer of new system on Ka32 was on board of FF Mi6 during Chernobil times
This was 3 years ago in Adriatic.... all trucks on RoRo was totally burned,
wreckage remain without power and crew, floating...
Looking for solution...
And this was in Busan, South Korea few days ago...
fire started on 4th and ended on top....
now we can offer real solution
wreckage remain without power and crew, floating...
Looking for solution...
And this was in Busan, South Korea few days ago...
fire started on 4th and ended on top....
now we can offer real solution
Last edited by 9Aplus; 7th Oct 2010 at 13:23.
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Gordy,
Thanks for posting that, I'm loving it! And plenty to keep me going for a while, too. Sadly, the in-depth coverage of all aspects of fire-flying on those boards means I've now had to add another type of flying I want to do to my list - that looks like an excellent challenge, and a heap-load of fun, with good people.
One question for the experienced smokies: what's a ping-pong ball?
Thanks for posting that, I'm loving it! And plenty to keep me going for a while, too
. Sadly, the in-depth coverage of all aspects of fire-flying on those boards means I've now had to add another type of flying I want to do to my list - that looks like an excellent challenge, and a heap-load of fun, with good people.One question for the experienced smokies: what's a ping-pong ball?
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Code:
What's a ping-pong ball?
The spheres or 'ping pong balls' are released through a dispenser and are more efficient than using ground burning methods. Ping pong balls are generally used when developing mosaic burn patterns.
'Ping pong ball' dispenser
The exothermic reaction in progress
Ping pong balls creating a small line of fires which grow together to burn out fuel
Firewatch Cobra used for aerial control but not used in dropping ping pong balls!
Hope this helps.
HM
Sky approach is only feasible way over 10th floor...the rest is possible too.
Recent Shangai and Busan tower fires show clearly that world need solution. Right way to go
Impulse shoot out of helicopter in hover approx 40 m distance (through downwash)
Recent Shangai and Busan tower fires show clearly that world need solution. Right way to go
Impulse shoot out of helicopter in hover approx 40 m distance (through downwash)
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 27th Nov 2010 at 19:40.
To further supplement Hell Man's post---here is a news item about me from the other day: The video will not embed so just click to watch:
Prescribed fire on the Mark Twain Forest
Prescribed fire on the Mark Twain Forest
Emily Rittman, Ben Knaup Reporter, Photographer 6:18 p.m. CDT, April 13, 2011
Taney County, Mo—
Winds are carrying smoke plumes from two large prescribed burns in the Mark Twain National Forest near the Taney and Ozark county line. The Springfield-Greene County health department says the burns could affect nearby county’s air quality indexes. The department says the smoke filled air may be unhealthy for the elderly and anyone with certain health issues.
From high above the forest a helicopter started fires down below. Crews are burning about 6,000 acres at Big Creek and Three Sisters near Ava. “In the helicopter we have a machine attached to the helicopter and needles inject the balls," Helitack Supervisor Angie Ruble said. The golf ball sized spheres are filled with chemicals that ignite naturally about 20 seconds after they hit the ground. ATV’s with fire torches attached to the back and crews with dripping torches ignite outer fires while the helicopter ignites the center of the burn. "Over the decades we've had a lot of trees growing and a lot of brush taking over,” Ava/Cassville/Willow Springs District Ranger Jenny Farenbaugh said. “In some cases cedars are there and they tend to be invaders so we like to knock them out."
“Knock outs” leave plumes of smoke. “We take a good hard look at the direction of the wind speed and watch ventilation rates,” Farenbaugh said. “We like to see a lot of smoke dispersed versus one straight column blowing into a community or home. We try to do the best we can of course natures is in control.”
With no control of incoming breezes the Springfield-Greene County Health Department warns these winds are unhealthy for anyone with heart or long disease. “It’s like smoke on a fire but in a larger area it impacts the community of Springfield,” Air Quality Control Coordinator Brian Adams said. The health department’s air quality control division expects smoke to drift in early Wednesday evening and possibly over night. “It usually impacts the elderly and children with respiratory problems,” Adams said. “We just recommend they stay indoors and keep the air conditioning on.”
Those starting and maintaining the fires say all this is worth it. "We are mimicking the application of fire the way it used to be done either by natural cases lighting strikes or when Native Americans and pioneers put fire to the ground," Farenbaugh said.
According to the health department, particulate matter may contain fine particles that contain microscopic solids or liquid droplets that can become embedded into the lungs and cause serious health problems. Multiple scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:
The division of Air Quality Control will continue to monitor this situation and provide detailed updates on the quality of the air in the Springfield area. For more information, visit the website at www.springfieldmo.gov/health/air.html
Taney County, Mo—
Winds are carrying smoke plumes from two large prescribed burns in the Mark Twain National Forest near the Taney and Ozark county line. The Springfield-Greene County health department says the burns could affect nearby county’s air quality indexes. The department says the smoke filled air may be unhealthy for the elderly and anyone with certain health issues.
From high above the forest a helicopter started fires down below. Crews are burning about 6,000 acres at Big Creek and Three Sisters near Ava. “In the helicopter we have a machine attached to the helicopter and needles inject the balls," Helitack Supervisor Angie Ruble said. The golf ball sized spheres are filled with chemicals that ignite naturally about 20 seconds after they hit the ground. ATV’s with fire torches attached to the back and crews with dripping torches ignite outer fires while the helicopter ignites the center of the burn. "Over the decades we've had a lot of trees growing and a lot of brush taking over,” Ava/Cassville/Willow Springs District Ranger Jenny Farenbaugh said. “In some cases cedars are there and they tend to be invaders so we like to knock them out."
“Knock outs” leave plumes of smoke. “We take a good hard look at the direction of the wind speed and watch ventilation rates,” Farenbaugh said. “We like to see a lot of smoke dispersed versus one straight column blowing into a community or home. We try to do the best we can of course natures is in control.”
With no control of incoming breezes the Springfield-Greene County Health Department warns these winds are unhealthy for anyone with heart or long disease. “It’s like smoke on a fire but in a larger area it impacts the community of Springfield,” Air Quality Control Coordinator Brian Adams said. The health department’s air quality control division expects smoke to drift in early Wednesday evening and possibly over night. “It usually impacts the elderly and children with respiratory problems,” Adams said. “We just recommend they stay indoors and keep the air conditioning on.”
Those starting and maintaining the fires say all this is worth it. "We are mimicking the application of fire the way it used to be done either by natural cases lighting strikes or when Native Americans and pioneers put fire to the ground," Farenbaugh said.
According to the health department, particulate matter may contain fine particles that contain microscopic solids or liquid droplets that can become embedded into the lungs and cause serious health problems. Multiple scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:
- Increased respiratory symptoms such as irritated airways, coughing or difficulty breathing
- Decreased lung function
- Aggravated asthma
- Development of chronic bronchitis
- Irregular heartbeat
- Nonfatal heart attacks
- Premature death in people with heart or lung disease
The division of Air Quality Control will continue to monitor this situation and provide detailed updates on the quality of the air in the Springfield area. For more information, visit the website at www.springfieldmo.gov/health/air.html
A few videos from the last years to try and explain fire:
First off we fly to the fire:
Then we need to put firefighters on the ground:
We can supply them with all they need---food, tents saws etc..(This is just training video, but you get the idea):
Then we need water....we can dip out of lakes:
If no lakes or rivers are around, we can set up a "pumpkin" and have it filled by a water tender:
We then drop on the fire line or start wet-lining:
If the guys on the ground need water for hose lines, we bring them 72 gallon Blivets and put them on ridges---they then gravity feed the hoses below:
Next we may end up doing burnouts---basically either constructing a line or using a natural line, (road, river etc) and burning out the fuel between the line and the approaching fire. We can do it by hand or by "helitorch":
We also can use the "ping pong machine":
First off we fly to the fire:
Then we need to put firefighters on the ground:
We can supply them with all they need---food, tents saws etc..(This is just training video, but you get the idea):
Then we need water....we can dip out of lakes:
If no lakes or rivers are around, we can set up a "pumpkin" and have it filled by a water tender:
We then drop on the fire line or start wet-lining:
If the guys on the ground need water for hose lines, we bring them 72 gallon Blivets and put them on ridges---they then gravity feed the hoses below:
Next we may end up doing burnouts---basically either constructing a line or using a natural line, (road, river etc) and burning out the fuel between the line and the approaching fire. We can do it by hand or by "helitorch":
We also can use the "ping pong machine":
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need info
Hi,
I have read your article regarding your advices for forrest fires. I need your expert opinion for the folowing
a. what is the max load a fire helicopter can lift ( not necessary the bucket!!)
b. how close to a fire can be a helicopter hovering above. in your article you are mentioning that is dangerous ( then is not impossible ) and should be at least the twice the height of the trees in flames. Is this correct
Thanking you in advance
Marios
I have read your article regarding your advices for forrest fires. I need your expert opinion for the folowing
a. what is the max load a fire helicopter can lift ( not necessary the bucket!!)
b. how close to a fire can be a helicopter hovering above. in your article you are mentioning that is dangerous ( then is not impossible ) and should be at least the twice the height of the trees in flames. Is this correct
Thanking you in advance
Marios
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Airborne Firefighting
In this video I was impressed by how much water the Blackhawk can carry. I found the following website Best Firefighting Helicopters. Compare, reviews & ratings. but could not see details of the firefighting Blackhawk. How much weight can a Blackhawk usually carry? Is it one of the best helicopters for fire bombing?
In the video a Bell helicopter is dropping water as well and at one point it looks as if his blades are going into the smoke, is this normal?
Another question please, it is true that only 40 K-Max helicopters were built and why did they make it with a single seat? How do you train someone when they want to fly that type. Also, it is good at fighting fires?
LA County FireHawks are fitted with 1,000 gallon tanks. Whether they fill them is another story---that would depend upon the elevation of the dip site and the temperature.
The comparison site you linked to does not show most of the helicopters used in firefighting. In the US, we typically use Sky Cranes, S-61's, K-max's and then Bell 212, 205, UH-1H, Long rangers, Jet Rangers and Astars. You will occasionally see some others too like the Fire Hawks.
Yes it is normal to fly through the smoke...do it all day long..
There were 38 K-max produced, of which I think 13 have been written off in crashes. It is an aerial truck and there was no need to have two seats therefore was made as a single seat only. There is a provision to strap one person on each side of the aircraft for transportation, but they are out side the cabin. If you are going to fly a K-max, you will already know how to fly and no dual required.
You may be interested in this post to understand fire, check out the whole thread too:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/111...ml#post6709161
The comparison site you linked to does not show most of the helicopters used in firefighting. In the US, we typically use Sky Cranes, S-61's, K-max's and then Bell 212, 205, UH-1H, Long rangers, Jet Rangers and Astars. You will occasionally see some others too like the Fire Hawks.
Yes it is normal to fly through the smoke...do it all day long..
There were 38 K-max produced, of which I think 13 have been written off in crashes. It is an aerial truck and there was no need to have two seats therefore was made as a single seat only. There is a provision to strap one person on each side of the aircraft for transportation, but they are out side the cabin. If you are going to fly a K-max, you will already know how to fly and no dual required.
You may be interested in this post to understand fire, check out the whole thread too:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/111...ml#post6709161
Do they still use the Huskie for initial training prior to the K-MAX?
There be a Husky at this museum in Olympia Washington.
HH-43 Huskie - Olympic Flight Museum Collection, Olympia WA
The Olympic Flight Museum Collection includes a wide variety of vintage aircraft, including airplanes, jets, and helicopters.
HH-43 Huskie - Olympic Flight Museum Collection, Olympia WA
The Olympic Flight Museum Collection includes a wide variety of vintage aircraft, including airplanes, jets, and helicopters.
Last edited by SASless; 11th May 2013 at 01:21.