Helicopter instruction: Cost etc
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Hi Charlie,
for private you need about 10 to 12 GrandUS$ (18.000 Pounds - that's nuts!!) in Panama, plus about 4 to 8 weeks, depending how much time you spend on the beach chasing girls. This PPL can be convalidated for 3 month at a time, but you also can work on your British Licence after that (one of our clients did just that), all your hours will count just fine (actually he did the Spanish Licence and uses it also in GB....)
a) Big soul-search: Do you REEAAAALY want to fly Helicopters for a living?
b) If just for fun and private, stay away from Europe! It will be boring and expensive. For the money spent for 5 hours you can also get a ticket fly to the US or Panama and fly these 5 hours here! Better yet safe the time for your vacation, get a 2-3 hour refresher (after you got your licence...) and fly here in your vacations - Adventure!
Contact me at [email protected] if you wish to learn more.
c) Soul-search again: CPL is about 35.000 US$ for around 160 hours and no job. Lousy pay for lousy jobs, just to get a couple hours ferry time per month, count on 2-4 years to land a job to get going......you REEAAAAALY need the NEEEEEED for rotors.....
d)Go to a FAA certified doctor and have him check you out if you can get a 2nd class medical you should be safe for a long time for private flying (3rd class medical needed there...)
e) ....see a) and c) again!
3top
for private you need about 10 to 12 GrandUS$ (18.000 Pounds - that's nuts!!) in Panama, plus about 4 to 8 weeks, depending how much time you spend on the beach chasing girls. This PPL can be convalidated for 3 month at a time, but you also can work on your British Licence after that (one of our clients did just that), all your hours will count just fine (actually he did the Spanish Licence and uses it also in GB....)
a) Big soul-search: Do you REEAAAALY want to fly Helicopters for a living?
b) If just for fun and private, stay away from Europe! It will be boring and expensive. For the money spent for 5 hours you can also get a ticket fly to the US or Panama and fly these 5 hours here! Better yet safe the time for your vacation, get a 2-3 hour refresher (after you got your licence...) and fly here in your vacations - Adventure!
Contact me at [email protected] if you wish to learn more.
c) Soul-search again: CPL is about 35.000 US$ for around 160 hours and no job. Lousy pay for lousy jobs, just to get a couple hours ferry time per month, count on 2-4 years to land a job to get going......you REEAAAAALY need the NEEEEEED for rotors.....
d)Go to a FAA certified doctor and have him check you out if you can get a 2nd class medical you should be safe for a long time for private flying (3rd class medical needed there...)
e) ....see a) and c) again!
3top
The Original Whirly
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Hi Charlie,
As you can see, you'll get as many answers as there are people.
Still, I'll try and tell you as much as I know, and as has been said before, you can get the details elsewhere.
A PPL in the UK, on an R22, assuming you do it in close to the minimum number of hours, will cost you about £12,000. It's far cheaper to do it in the US, Australia, or South Africa. However, you'll either need to do a JAR PPL, at a school which does these, or sort out converting what you get if you want to fly afterwards in the UK...and that last bit I don't know about. Other disadvantages are different radio terminology, not being used to UK weather, different charts etc. Most people who get a US PPL need a few hours extra training when they get back to the UK. You should save money overall though.
Short sight...not a problem for a Class 2 medical for private flying. If you want to go commercial you'll need a Class 1, and won't get it if your eyesight is outside certain limits, which I'm not sure of. You could do a search on the medical forum to find out. However, if you're serious about getting a CPL, it's worth getting a Class 1 early on, just to make sure that you can. Again, rules are different in other countries.
If you want a CPL you need 155 flying hours in total, and to do 14 ground exams. You then do a 30 hour flying course, with a test at the end of it. What does that qualify you for? Very very little, with the industry as it is now. There's loads of low hours CPLs around who'd love the sort of work you mention, and the chance of getting it is virtually nil.
If you want to know anything else along these lines, have a look back at old posts on here...do a search. Most of this stuff his been covered in quite a lot of detail.
As you can see, you'll get as many answers as there are people.
Still, I'll try and tell you as much as I know, and as has been said before, you can get the details elsewhere.A PPL in the UK, on an R22, assuming you do it in close to the minimum number of hours, will cost you about £12,000. It's far cheaper to do it in the US, Australia, or South Africa. However, you'll either need to do a JAR PPL, at a school which does these, or sort out converting what you get if you want to fly afterwards in the UK...and that last bit I don't know about. Other disadvantages are different radio terminology, not being used to UK weather, different charts etc. Most people who get a US PPL need a few hours extra training when they get back to the UK. You should save money overall though.
Short sight...not a problem for a Class 2 medical for private flying. If you want to go commercial you'll need a Class 1, and won't get it if your eyesight is outside certain limits, which I'm not sure of. You could do a search on the medical forum to find out. However, if you're serious about getting a CPL, it's worth getting a Class 1 early on, just to make sure that you can. Again, rules are different in other countries.
If you want a CPL you need 155 flying hours in total, and to do 14 ground exams. You then do a 30 hour flying course, with a test at the end of it. What does that qualify you for? Very very little, with the industry as it is now. There's loads of low hours CPLs around who'd love the sort of work you mention, and the chance of getting it is virtually nil.
If you want to know anything else along these lines, have a look back at old posts on here...do a search. Most of this stuff his been covered in quite a lot of detail.
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Virgin's dilemma
Charlie H,
first of all, forgive Willygig's catlike response to Ascend Charlie's truthful and honest response as to the cost of a CPL in the UK. Secondly 18 grand for a PPL is about 8 large too much and you can do much better off in the States with Helicopter Adventures in Titusville, Florida. They do JAR ops wonderkits of everything you'll need at about two thirds of the price. It's where Bristow send their raw recruits, and that's got to be worth a fair bit as they train the pilots well and on the cheep (like the budgie).
As a big plus you're right next to Cape Carnivore where many folk stalk the space shuttle launches and if a 1000ft hover watching the Endeavor launch is anything to go bye, it's unforgettable.
However, should you pass your exams and your requisite hours you still need a job. The current situation in Europe is sh*t, or at least North sea, uncertain even for those with 5,000hrs so think wisely before spending any savings.
Good luck
Redraven
first of all, forgive Willygig's catlike response to Ascend Charlie's truthful and honest response as to the cost of a CPL in the UK. Secondly 18 grand for a PPL is about 8 large too much and you can do much better off in the States with Helicopter Adventures in Titusville, Florida. They do JAR ops wonderkits of everything you'll need at about two thirds of the price. It's where Bristow send their raw recruits, and that's got to be worth a fair bit as they train the pilots well and on the cheep (like the budgie).
As a big plus you're right next to Cape Carnivore where many folk stalk the space shuttle launches and if a 1000ft hover watching the Endeavor launch is anything to go bye, it's unforgettable.
However, should you pass your exams and your requisite hours you still need a job. The current situation in Europe is sh*t, or at least North sea, uncertain even for those with 5,000hrs so think wisely before spending any savings.
Good luck
Redraven
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£18,000 for a PPL? 
£12,000 for a PPL?
Which ever figure's correct that's way too much.
The difference in gas prices accounts for some but the biggest problem from what I've seen is instructors charge way too much in the UK. I've seen figures between £25 and £40 an hour quoted in this forum.
When doing the math you'll have to allow for flights, housing, checkrides with an instructor when you get home but I reckon you're better off training in a country where gas is cheaper and instructors teaching PPL don't charge so much.
£12,000 for a PPL? Which ever figure's correct that's way too much.
The difference in gas prices accounts for some but the biggest problem from what I've seen is instructors charge way too much in the UK. I've seen figures between £25 and £40 an hour quoted in this forum.
When doing the math you'll have to allow for flights, housing, checkrides with an instructor when you get home but I reckon you're better off training in a country where gas is cheaper and instructors teaching PPL don't charge so much.
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Charlie,
If my response came across as catlike, as Blue rotor ronin suggests, then I apologize. £18k is not the cheapest option and, as I have said, I learned in the UK, on a Schweizer (quite a bit more pricey than a R22), at a v. reputable school. It took me 65 hours and in that figure I also include EVERYTHING, having kept full accounts.
Ascend Charlie - perhaps I misinterpreted. If you meant 45K for a CPL then, yes, that is about right.
If my response came across as catlike, as Blue rotor ronin suggests, then I apologize. £18k is not the cheapest option and, as I have said, I learned in the UK, on a Schweizer (quite a bit more pricey than a R22), at a v. reputable school. It took me 65 hours and in that figure I also include EVERYTHING, having kept full accounts.
Ascend Charlie - perhaps I misinterpreted. If you meant 45K for a CPL then, yes, that is about right.
The Original Whirly
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Ascend Charlie did in fact say 45 grand for a PPL, whatever he might have meant.
As an instructor, I quote that £12,000 to my students. But £18,000 could easily be closer in reality. Let's have a look at the figures.
Hourly rate: £210 plus VAT and landing fees where I am. You can get it for a bit more or a bit less, but I think that's probably typical. If it's a lot less do some research; in my experience you get what you pay for...and I learned that the hard way. OK, so around £250/hr all-in. Minimum required is 45 hours, but most people take 60-70. Since Charlie is young and plans to do it over a relatively short time, let's say 50 hours, though this may be over-optimistic. That gives £12,500 (which is where I got my figures from). Of course, he might do it in minimum hours, which would mean it'll cost around £11,000. BUT...books, charts etc - probably another couple of hundred quid. Ground school - usually learn it by yourself, but some places teach it, and would cost a bit. Exams - can't remember what they cost, but not free. Medicals and so on.... So perhaps £14,000 would be more accurate, as an average. Though for plenty of people Whirlygig's figure is probably closer.
As for our pay, £30-40 per flying hour is hardly a fortune. Briefings are free, and in most places tend to be thorough. With the UK weather, instructors still find it hard to survive. But unlike f/w instructors, who are paid less, it is just possible to make a living out of it. So they tend to be career instructors, rather than the airline wannabe hourbuilders and retired folk you get in the f/w world. As such, I'd say the overall standard is better...and I've been a student in both.
Anyway, even if you paid the instructors less, say, £20 an hour, it would make little difference. Students would pay about £230/hr, and the whole course, for 50 hours (to save my maths!) would be £1000 less. So you'd save a grand, and have instructors who cut corners since they probably weren't making enough to cover expenses! Not a lot of point really.
Flying is so expensive in the UK because of the cost of fuel in particular, then there's land prices, CAA fees, etc etc etc. Don't blame it on the instructors.
As an instructor, I quote that £12,000 to my students. But £18,000 could easily be closer in reality. Let's have a look at the figures.
Hourly rate: £210 plus VAT and landing fees where I am. You can get it for a bit more or a bit less, but I think that's probably typical. If it's a lot less do some research; in my experience you get what you pay for...and I learned that the hard way.
OK, so around £250/hr all-in. Minimum required is 45 hours, but most people take 60-70. Since Charlie is young and plans to do it over a relatively short time, let's say 50 hours, though this may be over-optimistic. That gives £12,500 (which is where I got my figures from). Of course, he might do it in minimum hours, which would mean it'll cost around £11,000. BUT...books, charts etc - probably another couple of hundred quid. Ground school - usually learn it by yourself, but some places teach it, and would cost a bit. Exams - can't remember what they cost, but not free. Medicals and so on.... So perhaps £14,000 would be more accurate, as an average. Though for plenty of people Whirlygig's figure is probably closer.As for our pay, £30-40 per flying hour is hardly a fortune. Briefings are free, and in most places tend to be thorough. With the UK weather, instructors still find it hard to survive. But unlike f/w instructors, who are paid less, it is just possible to make a living out of it. So they tend to be career instructors, rather than the airline wannabe hourbuilders and retired folk you get in the f/w world. As such, I'd say the overall standard is better...and I've been a student in both.
Anyway, even if you paid the instructors less, say, £20 an hour, it would make little difference. Students would pay about £230/hr, and the whole course, for 50 hours (to save my maths!) would be £1000 less. So you'd save a grand, and have instructors who cut corners since they probably weren't making enough to cover expenses! Not a lot of point really.
Flying is so expensive in the UK because of the cost of fuel in particular, then there's land prices, CAA fees, etc etc etc. Don't blame it on the instructors.
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Hi Charlie
I started flying about 18 months ago and here is my 5 pennies worth.
I visited Helicopter Advdentures in Titusville and had a good look round, met the instructors and had a couple of trial lessons.
The costs published on thier web site of $13,230 is very good. I chose not to take a full course as I was unable to allow the 6 weeks (a mortgage to pay and a job to maintain) it would take.
The exchange rate at the time was no where as good as it is at present.
If I was in a position to spend 6 weeks over there at todays rates, I would be over there in a flash.
However, in the real world, I had to fit my flying in when weather and holidays permitted and the costs of £12000 are about the best you can expect. I know people who have spent about £18000 and that it not the limit.
I trained in a Schweizer / Hughes 269C and the above prices include VAT
Hope this Helps
Jerry
I started flying about 18 months ago and here is my 5 pennies worth.
I visited Helicopter Advdentures in Titusville and had a good look round, met the instructors and had a couple of trial lessons.
The costs published on thier web site of $13,230 is very good. I chose not to take a full course as I was unable to allow the 6 weeks (a mortgage to pay and a job to maintain) it would take.
The exchange rate at the time was no where as good as it is at present.
If I was in a position to spend 6 weeks over there at todays rates, I would be over there in a flash.
However, in the real world, I had to fit my flying in when weather and holidays permitted and the costs of £12000 are about the best you can expect. I know people who have spent about £18000 and that it not the limit.
I trained in a Schweizer / Hughes 269C and the above prices include VAT
Hope this Helps
Jerry
Last edited by jerry712731; 5th Jan 2004 at 01:36.
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I thought the prices students paid in England were bad, I had no idea they were astronomic.
£250/hr all-in? For a R22??
"As for our pay, £30-40 per flying hour is hardly a fortune."
I disagree. I think it's a fortune, and a rip-off. That's the hourly equivalent of about £1400 - £1600 per week.
FI's in America don't earn anything like that, and they don't expect to.
"Briefings are free, and in most places tend to be thorough."
Free? The stude's about to pay £30-40 for the privilege of an hour's instruction. Of course they should be free. And they're only thorough in "most places"??
"So they tend to be career instructors, rather than the airline wannabe hourbuilders and retired folk you get in the f/w world."
Whoa there. I don't mean to be disrespectful Whirlybird, so please don't take it the wrong way, but you've only recently qualified as a FI. What's the problem with the guy/gal who qualified with you and wants to build hours instructing to go on to work as a professional pilot? And what's wrong with "retired folk" with decades of experience to impart? It depends upon the person not why they're instructing.
No wonder so many Brits come to America to do their training.
£250/hr all-in? For a R22??
"As for our pay, £30-40 per flying hour is hardly a fortune."
I disagree. I think it's a fortune, and a rip-off. That's the hourly equivalent of about £1400 - £1600 per week.
FI's in America don't earn anything like that, and they don't expect to.
"Briefings are free, and in most places tend to be thorough."
Free? The stude's about to pay £30-40 for the privilege of an hour's instruction. Of course they should be free. And they're only thorough in "most places"??
"So they tend to be career instructors, rather than the airline wannabe hourbuilders and retired folk you get in the f/w world."
Whoa there. I don't mean to be disrespectful Whirlybird, so please don't take it the wrong way, but you've only recently qualified as a FI. What's the problem with the guy/gal who qualified with you and wants to build hours instructing to go on to work as a professional pilot? And what's wrong with "retired folk" with decades of experience to impart? It depends upon the person not why they're instructing.
No wonder so many Brits come to America to do their training.
The Original Whirly
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Bronx,
Of course it's astonomical. But not much of that is due to instructors' pay, a point you conveniently ignored. You don't have something like 80% tax on fuel in the US. You don't have VAT on everything in the US, or not at UK rates anyway. You don't have landing fees in the US. These account for most of the costs.
£30-40 a week most definitely does not equate to the amount you suggest. You can only fly one hour in two anyway, on average; briefings for most exercises are 30-40 minutes. Instructors drag helicopters in and out of hangars, preflight everything, answer the phone etc, answer groundschool questions - all unpaid. Four hours is about the maximum flying you can do in a day, except possibly during the very long days of mid-summer, if you happen to work at an airfield that's open all hours. That's not even allowing for days you can't fly due to the weather. That means we're talking about £1000 a week as an absolute maximum for a six day week. That would only be during a heatwave in mid-summer at a school that's fully booked. I don't know, but I think half that is probably more realistic, as an average over the year. That's £20,000-25,000 a year at most. Not an absolute fortune really.
What you say about hour builders ought to be true. But my experience of f/w ones is that they resent the low pay, can't wait to escape, and take it out on students by cutting corners. Not all, but many. Some even think that this is justified - read various recent threads on the instructors forum. Yes, of course it depends on the person. But it's nice to have the occasional full time instructor who wants to be there and can actually afford to stay.
I agree that it's unsurprising that so many Brits train in the US. But as I've pointed out, even paying instructors half what they get now wouldn't alter that. You ignored that bit; why the focus on instructors' pay? Jealousy?
Of course it's astonomical. But not much of that is due to instructors' pay, a point you conveniently ignored. You don't have something like 80% tax on fuel in the US. You don't have VAT on everything in the US, or not at UK rates anyway. You don't have landing fees in the US. These account for most of the costs.
£30-40 a week most definitely does not equate to the amount you suggest. You can only fly one hour in two anyway, on average; briefings for most exercises are 30-40 minutes. Instructors drag helicopters in and out of hangars, preflight everything, answer the phone etc, answer groundschool questions - all unpaid. Four hours is about the maximum flying you can do in a day, except possibly during the very long days of mid-summer, if you happen to work at an airfield that's open all hours. That's not even allowing for days you can't fly due to the weather. That means we're talking about £1000 a week as an absolute maximum for a six day week. That would only be during a heatwave in mid-summer at a school that's fully booked. I don't know, but I think half that is probably more realistic, as an average over the year. That's £20,000-25,000 a year at most. Not an absolute fortune really.
What you say about hour builders ought to be true. But my experience of f/w ones is that they resent the low pay, can't wait to escape, and take it out on students by cutting corners. Not all, but many. Some even think that this is justified - read various recent threads on the instructors forum. Yes, of course it depends on the person. But it's nice to have the occasional full time instructor who wants to be there and can actually afford to stay.
I agree that it's unsurprising that so many Brits train in the US. But as I've pointed out, even paying instructors half what they get now wouldn't alter that. You ignored that bit; why the focus on instructors' pay? Jealousy?
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I realise England's amazing taxes account for a lot and that airfields charge incredible fees for landing. I think I read somewhere it costs about £20 to land an R22 at Biggin Hill.
I don't agree instructors' pay is insignificant, but I dont see why helo FI's should charge any more than fixed-wing FI's. As a FI, you may not think £20 less sounds a lot but if I was a student, the difference between paying £230 and £250 an hour plus tax would seem like a lot to me. And yes, I think £20,000-25,000 a year is a lot. What do school teachers get paid in England?
Jealousy? No.
I haven't done any PPL instructing for more than 20 years but I know students here only pay about $15-20 over the rental rate for instruction and it was less than that 20 years ago. The UK used to have a good system of PPL-FI's. Shame they stopped that.
I don't buy this living wage stuff. If you carry that through, if a FI has only got two students doing an hour a week does he charge them each £250 pr/hr so he gets a living wage at the end of the month/year? When I was a freelance/contract pilot I had some lean times but that's the deal if you get paid by the hour. If I'd put my hourly rate up I would have gotten even less work.
I don't agree instructors' pay is insignificant, but I dont see why helo FI's should charge any more than fixed-wing FI's. As a FI, you may not think £20 less sounds a lot but if I was a student, the difference between paying £230 and £250 an hour plus tax would seem like a lot to me. And yes, I think £20,000-25,000 a year is a lot. What do school teachers get paid in England?
Jealousy? No.
I haven't done any PPL instructing for more than 20 years but I know students here only pay about $15-20 over the rental rate for instruction and it was less than that 20 years ago. The UK used to have a good system of PPL-FI's. Shame they stopped that.I don't buy this living wage stuff. If you carry that through, if a FI has only got two students doing an hour a week does he charge them each £250 pr/hr so he gets a living wage at the end of the month/year? When I was a freelance/contract pilot I had some lean times but that's the deal if you get paid by the hour. If I'd put my hourly rate up I would have gotten even less work.
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Overpaid FI's?
FI's are underpaid and overworked in every country in the western world.
Any FI with an ounce of common sense flowing through his veins will be finetuning his CV to "get out of jail" and into a real job.
Postings that claim FI's should have their pay reduced based on the assumption that they are overpaid are at best silly and ill informed.
The helicopter industry does not need pilots go slumming it for the first few years after they have qualified for their commercial licences, having invested anywhere from €70.000 to €100.000.
The demand for pilots is already greater than the demand. An insufficient number of qualified applicants are available for positions in the North Sea, despite what some posts claim.
In the next few years the situation will get even worse, as the retirement bulge is already starting to take effect.
Happy New Year to all!
Any FI with an ounce of common sense flowing through his veins will be finetuning his CV to "get out of jail" and into a real job.
Postings that claim FI's should have their pay reduced based on the assumption that they are overpaid are at best silly and ill informed.
The helicopter industry does not need pilots go slumming it for the first few years after they have qualified for their commercial licences, having invested anywhere from €70.000 to €100.000.
The demand for pilots is already greater than the demand. An insufficient number of qualified applicants are available for positions in the North Sea, despite what some posts claim.
In the next few years the situation will get even worse, as the retirement bulge is already starting to take effect.
Happy New Year to all!
Last edited by Helibusdriver; 5th Jan 2004 at 14:45.
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seems to me having been a full time flight instructor for 3 years before I got my north sea job, that whirlybirds figures are spot on, I earned about £20,000 3 years in a row and worked far harder for it than I ever have before or since. and I do not think it is high pay in fact is is less than average pay in the UK
given that someone deciding to become a flight instructor now will have to spend £60,000 and even in my day (late 90's) I had to spend nearly £40,000 that doesnt seem an unreasonable salary, given that I was working 6 days a week for ages and ages and never had a holiday because I couldnt afford to.
the Figures Bronx gave assume we can fly 40 hours revenue per week or 160+ per month, which is not achievable in the UK , I think I averaged 40 hours per month and once achieved 75 in July one year.
I think Bronx is out of touch and unrealistic and thinks everyone should have it really crap cos he did when he was lad !
given that someone deciding to become a flight instructor now will have to spend £60,000 and even in my day (late 90's) I had to spend nearly £40,000 that doesnt seem an unreasonable salary, given that I was working 6 days a week for ages and ages and never had a holiday because I couldnt afford to.
the Figures Bronx gave assume we can fly 40 hours revenue per week or 160+ per month, which is not achievable in the UK , I think I averaged 40 hours per month and once achieved 75 in July one year.
I think Bronx is out of touch and unrealistic and thinks everyone should have it really crap cos he did when he was lad !
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What's "ill-informed" about Bronx's posts?
Which 'facts' has he got wrong?
If there are'nt enough students about to keep you busy full-time how does charging more per hour attract more students/more work?
Or do you just keep charging more and more as the number of students fall to try to keep your monthly/annual earnings up? Sounds potty to me. In any world except 'designer' fashion and fancy restaurants, charging more doesn;t increase demand. Lower cost = more customers.
I can't see how landing fees make the problem worse for r/w than f/w. They're extortionate but f/w pay them as well. Do airfields charge more for R22's and H300's than light fixed-wings?
Helis do less landings during training so the student's bill for landing fees should be less than f/w UNLESS airfields charge a landing fee each time you set down in the hover square. Do they?
There's lots of jobs where training costs a lot of money and newly qualified people work long hours for poor money in the beginning. Doctors and lawyers for example.
Which 'facts' has he got wrong?
If there are'nt enough students about to keep you busy full-time how does charging more per hour attract more students/more work?
Or do you just keep charging more and more as the number of students fall to try to keep your monthly/annual earnings up? Sounds potty to me. In any world except 'designer' fashion and fancy restaurants, charging more doesn;t increase demand. Lower cost = more customers.
I can't see how landing fees make the problem worse for r/w than f/w. They're extortionate but f/w pay them as well. Do airfields charge more for R22's and H300's than light fixed-wings?
Helis do less landings during training so the student's bill for landing fees should be less than f/w UNLESS airfields charge a landing fee each time you set down in the hover square. Do they?
There's lots of jobs where training costs a lot of money and newly qualified people work long hours for poor money in the beginning. Doctors and lawyers for example.
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the reality is and I know because I have done it for a long time that being a flight instructor for people doing there PPL is not a proper career, you work far more hours than a regular job for less money than a regular job. generally with no sick pay no no pension and no benefits.
and where did this stuff about charging more as you have less students come from. the instructor rate is £40 per hour more or less regardless of number of students, unless the school paying the instructor a retainer or different deal etc.
In the UK I worked endless days where the weather was bad or the aircraft u/s so earned nothing. even when there was student demand.
I dont understand this negativity about what is already a poor sector of the profession to go into from a "trying to justify it to your wife point of view as to why to spend £60k" and unlike doctors or lawyers the pay never goes up with more experience, there is only so many hours you can flying in a week given all the factors.
there is obviously a balance to be struck, just like on the north sea the guys up the front were at one time generally the lowest paid people on the a/c, then a reasonable pay structure was fought for which is more equitable.
there is nothing wrong with fair pay for hard work, some of you guys wouldnt be happy till the instructor was flying for free " just so it keeps the rates down"
flight instructors have had there keeness to fly exploited for years and it seems even worse in the US, and I dont think the answer is to drag everyone down to US levels of pay.
and where did this stuff about charging more as you have less students come from. the instructor rate is £40 per hour more or less regardless of number of students, unless the school paying the instructor a retainer or different deal etc.
In the UK I worked endless days where the weather was bad or the aircraft u/s so earned nothing. even when there was student demand.
I dont understand this negativity about what is already a poor sector of the profession to go into from a "trying to justify it to your wife point of view as to why to spend £60k" and unlike doctors or lawyers the pay never goes up with more experience, there is only so many hours you can flying in a week given all the factors.
there is obviously a balance to be struck, just like on the north sea the guys up the front were at one time generally the lowest paid people on the a/c, then a reasonable pay structure was fought for which is more equitable.
there is nothing wrong with fair pay for hard work, some of you guys wouldnt be happy till the instructor was flying for free " just so it keeps the rates down"
flight instructors have had there keeness to fly exploited for years and it seems even worse in the US, and I dont think the answer is to drag everyone down to US levels of pay.
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CF
"and where did this stuff about charging more as you have less students come from. the instructor rate is £40 per hour more or less regardless of number of students"
I think it comes from some FIs above saying the hourly rate has to be around £40 pr hr to make a decent income spread out over a month/year because FIs don't fly 40 hours a week. What Hoverman and Bronx are saying is that's counter productive because demand would go up/there'd be more students if the cost was lower.
I suppose (I'm guessing) they'd argue that the £40 pr hr to make a 'living wage' argument doesn't apply at a busy school where FIs fly more hours so could charge less and still make a living wage.
I don't think anyone's saying there shouldn't be fair pay. The difference of opinion is whether £40 pr hr for PPL instructing is fair or too much.
BTW, no self employed people get sick pay, holiday pay, pensions, benefits etc whether they're instructors or not.
NB: I'm not taking sides, just trying to help you follow the opposing argument.
"and where did this stuff about charging more as you have less students come from. the instructor rate is £40 per hour more or less regardless of number of students"
I think it comes from some FIs above saying the hourly rate has to be around £40 pr hr to make a decent income spread out over a month/year because FIs don't fly 40 hours a week. What Hoverman and Bronx are saying is that's counter productive because demand would go up/there'd be more students if the cost was lower.
I suppose (I'm guessing) they'd argue that the £40 pr hr to make a 'living wage' argument doesn't apply at a busy school where FIs fly more hours so could charge less and still make a living wage.
I don't think anyone's saying there shouldn't be fair pay. The difference of opinion is whether £40 pr hr for PPL instructing is fair or too much.
BTW, no self employed people get sick pay, holiday pay, pensions, benefits etc whether they're instructors or not.
NB: I'm not taking sides, just trying to help you follow the opposing argument.
Last edited by Heliport; 5th Jan 2004 at 17:07.
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Charlie
If you are going to convert a foreign commercial rating to a UK (JAA) commercial it realy does not matter where in the world you get it.
You can take any ICAO commercial and return to the UK, take the ATPL exams (5 months of hard grind at Cabair or 7 at Oxford - the only two residential courses) and take a flight test. Kaboom - done!!
The real question is where are you going to get your first job. The only realy even half guaranteed way of doing it is to become a flight instructor in the US. This is not half as scary as it might first appear, is actually great fun and hones your basic skills in ways that no other job can.
If you train in the US many schools will give you a J1 visa which allows you to STUDY AND WORK for two years. The key is to have as little time of the two year visa on the study and as much as possible on the work. I would recommend coming out to do your private (and instrument if poss) on an M1 visa (study only) and then returning to the UK and applying for the J1 visa. Bear in mind that you cannot apply for a J1 visa if you already have a Commercial from any country. This will give you maximum time to work and maybe even get an ATPL.
The instrument rating is crucial. Most jobs will ask for it later on. The UK instrument costs $40,000 so get an FAA one. Some schools have special dispensation (141) to teach this on lesser requirements so that you can do it post private pre commercial. What a great way to hour build!!! Having an FAA instrument will also reduce the cost of the UK Instrument by a substantial amount.
Helicopter Adventures has been mentioned in these listings and I would recommend them. They are the biggest civillian helicopter school in the world, are extremely professional and the maintenance is the best (which does make graduates a little spoilt on that count). Graduates can be found in most big Helicopter companies around the world which never hurts for later job prospects.
If you are looking for a more rounded education, mountains, fun flying and adventure then I would recommend NAC in Cape Town, South Africa to get your PPL. Cape Town is an incredible city and very cheap. After the PPL go to the US for the rest. The sensible way is to do it all in the US but who needs sensible.
Helicopter Adventures also does a joint JAA/ FAA commercial program - may be worth looking into.
Take everyones figures and double them. Take every time quoted and double it. Take your expected cost of living double it. Add these together and if you have this money and this time prepared then you are well prepared. I have seen too many people have to give up on their dream because they ran out of money. Many of them were pulling down big salaries previously and found it difficult to change spending habits. You are going to be a student which means a crappy car, no restaurants cheap rent and cheap brand foods. This will continue for the first couple of years.
Good luck and let nobody deter you...
And to all you prats out there asking someone if he realy wants to be a helicopter pilot - butt out and let someone live....
SHARK ATTACK
If you are going to convert a foreign commercial rating to a UK (JAA) commercial it realy does not matter where in the world you get it.
You can take any ICAO commercial and return to the UK, take the ATPL exams (5 months of hard grind at Cabair or 7 at Oxford - the only two residential courses) and take a flight test. Kaboom - done!!
The real question is where are you going to get your first job. The only realy even half guaranteed way of doing it is to become a flight instructor in the US. This is not half as scary as it might first appear, is actually great fun and hones your basic skills in ways that no other job can.
If you train in the US many schools will give you a J1 visa which allows you to STUDY AND WORK for two years. The key is to have as little time of the two year visa on the study and as much as possible on the work. I would recommend coming out to do your private (and instrument if poss) on an M1 visa (study only) and then returning to the UK and applying for the J1 visa. Bear in mind that you cannot apply for a J1 visa if you already have a Commercial from any country. This will give you maximum time to work and maybe even get an ATPL.
The instrument rating is crucial. Most jobs will ask for it later on. The UK instrument costs $40,000 so get an FAA one. Some schools have special dispensation (141) to teach this on lesser requirements so that you can do it post private pre commercial. What a great way to hour build!!! Having an FAA instrument will also reduce the cost of the UK Instrument by a substantial amount.
Helicopter Adventures has been mentioned in these listings and I would recommend them. They are the biggest civillian helicopter school in the world, are extremely professional and the maintenance is the best (which does make graduates a little spoilt on that count). Graduates can be found in most big Helicopter companies around the world which never hurts for later job prospects.
If you are looking for a more rounded education, mountains, fun flying and adventure then I would recommend NAC in Cape Town, South Africa to get your PPL. Cape Town is an incredible city and very cheap. After the PPL go to the US for the rest. The sensible way is to do it all in the US but who needs sensible.
Helicopter Adventures also does a joint JAA/ FAA commercial program - may be worth looking into.
Take everyones figures and double them. Take every time quoted and double it. Take your expected cost of living double it. Add these together and if you have this money and this time prepared then you are well prepared. I have seen too many people have to give up on their dream because they ran out of money. Many of them were pulling down big salaries previously and found it difficult to change spending habits. You are going to be a student which means a crappy car, no restaurants cheap rent and cheap brand foods. This will continue for the first couple of years.
Good luck and let nobody deter you...
And to all you prats out there asking someone if he realy wants to be a helicopter pilot - butt out and let someone live....
SHARK ATTACK
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Mr Selfish
"It was "Bronx" who suggested that FIs could get 40hrs pay per week. This contention is at best"ill informed" He ? also was responsable for the 250 pounds an hour nonsense.
Nope. I never said that. I said the figures Whirlybird gave (£35-40 pr/hr) were "the hourly equivalent of about £1400 - £1600 per week." Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.
Whirlybird's starting point was £210 pr/hr for training in an R22. £210 + tax = £246.75. OK to be accurate that's £3.25 short of what you call "the 250 pounds an hour nonsense".
Whirly added landing fees averaged out and came up with an 'all in' figure of £250 pr/hr and other folks agreed that was about right.
What beats me is this idea you put your hourly rate up if you're not working all day every day so your weekly earnings are in the region you think you should earn. I started out doing freelance work and in the early years was only working a day or two or week so my money was poor. That's the way it is if you're starting out self employed in any field not just aviation. Your earnings are low until you build up a reputation and customer base. Most folks who go into business earn very little money or even lose money in the first few years.
Yeah FI's are professional pilots but most, I say again most, are low time guys building hours to go for jobs they won't get until they've got more hours. If a career instructor with a few thousand instructing hours charges high fees good for him/her. You're paying for experience.
You think newly qualified FI's with a paper qualification, low hours and not much experience are worth £40 pr/hr. I don't. I think it's stupid money but the best of luck to you if you can get rich people who don't care what it costs and folk with family commitments who can't go to another country to train. The rest will go to other countries to do their training at a more reasonable cost.
"It was "Bronx" who suggested that FIs could get 40hrs pay per week. This contention is at best"ill informed" He ? also was responsable for the 250 pounds an hour nonsense.
Nope. I never said that. I said the figures Whirlybird gave (£35-40 pr/hr) were "the hourly equivalent of about £1400 - £1600 per week." Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.
Whirlybird's starting point was £210 pr/hr for training in an R22. £210 + tax = £246.75. OK to be accurate that's £3.25 short of what you call "the 250 pounds an hour nonsense".
Whirly added landing fees averaged out and came up with an 'all in' figure of £250 pr/hr and other folks agreed that was about right.
What beats me is this idea you put your hourly rate up if you're not working all day every day so your weekly earnings are in the region you think you should earn. I started out doing freelance work and in the early years was only working a day or two or week so my money was poor. That's the way it is if you're starting out self employed in any field not just aviation. Your earnings are low until you build up a reputation and customer base. Most folks who go into business earn very little money or even lose money in the first few years.
Yeah FI's are professional pilots but most, I say again most, are low time guys building hours to go for jobs they won't get until they've got more hours. If a career instructor with a few thousand instructing hours charges high fees good for him/her. You're paying for experience.
You think newly qualified FI's with a paper qualification, low hours and not much experience are worth £40 pr/hr. I don't. I think it's stupid money but the best of luck to you if you can get rich people who don't care what it costs and folk with family commitments who can't go to another country to train. The rest will go to other countries to do their training at a more reasonable cost.
Last edited by Bronx; 6th Jan 2004 at 17:19.
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I think one of the problems here is that the cost of living in the UK is much higher than in the US.
The UK national average wage is £20,000. If you take a scenario of say, a young copper (salary £25,000) married to a nurse (salary £14,000) who wish to buy a property in the South of England (cost - average - £180,000 and deposit £20,000), then it doesn't take much to work out that they cannot afford to buy a house. Mortgage required £160,000 - lender's requirements being 3 times joint salary (i.e. 25k plus 14k times 3 = 117,000). This is usually the maximum that anyone can afford and still be able to eat.
So you see, £40/hour equating to 2 hours a day and a gross annual wage of £20,000 is not a wealthy salary.
Bronx - there is NO way that an FI can work 40 hours a week!! The £40/hour is for flying only. Everything else is unpaid. It is not stupid money. But yes, heli flying in the UK is for rich people (or very committed people) but there are so many economic reasons why the States and Antipodes are much cheaper - all to do with supply and demand.
Cheers
Whirlygig
The UK national average wage is £20,000. If you take a scenario of say, a young copper (salary £25,000) married to a nurse (salary £14,000) who wish to buy a property in the South of England (cost - average - £180,000 and deposit £20,000), then it doesn't take much to work out that they cannot afford to buy a house. Mortgage required £160,000 - lender's requirements being 3 times joint salary (i.e. 25k plus 14k times 3 = 117,000). This is usually the maximum that anyone can afford and still be able to eat.
So you see, £40/hour equating to 2 hours a day and a gross annual wage of £20,000 is not a wealthy salary.
Bronx - there is NO way that an FI can work 40 hours a week!! The £40/hour is for flying only. Everything else is unpaid. It is not stupid money. But yes, heli flying in the UK is for rich people (or very committed people) but there are so many economic reasons why the States and Antipodes are much cheaper - all to do with supply and demand.
Cheers
Whirlygig
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Bronx,
One thing that may be different in the US and the UK is the way instructors get paid. You seem to think the instructors decide what to charge, and maybe that's the case in the US. Here the schools have a rate for the students, and pay their instructors an hourly rate. This varies, but seems to usually be £40/hr for QHIs, and £30/hr for FI(R)s. So your new instructor is not getting £40/hr anyway. This is usually so even if you're freelance and not getting a lot of flying, though I believe there are other ways it's set-up sometimes. So it's not up to us to be willing to take a cut in pay. I don't think the schools would agree - though I'm relatively new to this, and not certain.
Whirlygig is right; the cost of living here is much higher than in the US. So are the costs of things like medicals, travelling to the airfield (that 80% tax on fuel again) and so on. Your newly qualified FI(R) couldn't possibly fly more than four hours a day, which is £720/week. To do that he/she would be working about ten hours a day - checking helicopters, giving briefings, etc. And that's also assuming perfect weather, a six-day week, and a constant supply of students. And those just don't happen.
One thing that may be different in the US and the UK is the way instructors get paid. You seem to think the instructors decide what to charge, and maybe that's the case in the US. Here the schools have a rate for the students, and pay their instructors an hourly rate. This varies, but seems to usually be £40/hr for QHIs, and £30/hr for FI(R)s. So your new instructor is not getting £40/hr anyway. This is usually so even if you're freelance and not getting a lot of flying, though I believe there are other ways it's set-up sometimes. So it's not up to us to be willing to take a cut in pay. I don't think the schools would agree - though I'm relatively new to this, and not certain.
Whirlygig is right; the cost of living here is much higher than in the US. So are the costs of things like medicals, travelling to the airfield (that 80% tax on fuel again) and so on. Your newly qualified FI(R) couldn't possibly fly more than four hours a day, which is £720/week. To do that he/she would be working about ten hours a day - checking helicopters, giving briefings, etc. And that's also assuming perfect weather, a six-day week, and a constant supply of students. And those just don't happen.
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Some of you seem bent on misunderstanding what Bronx said. He never said a FI can or does teach 40 hours a week.
Now I'm confused about what the FIs are saying. Some say FIs get £40 an hour. Some say the school charges that for instruction but keeps some and doesn't pay the FI the £40. If that's true either the student is subsidising the SFH cost or the school gets a hidden profit.
I've done some training in the States and you know where you stand. $XX for the helicopter and $YY for the FI. The school gets $XX and the FI gets the $YY. Your not expcted to pay extra for any time he spends checking helis, doing odd jobs around the school when he's not teaching. I don't know if they get paid by the school for that extra work or they accept it as part of being on the low rungs of the aviation ladder but it's not included in the amount you pay for the FI. Either way, the student isn't paying for it in his FI charge.
I agree with Bronx. £30/40 an hour for PPL instruction is way too much. As Whirlygig says, its all to do with supply and demand. If the cost of learning to fly wasn't so high there'd be more people able to do it and the demand would go up. You might get less per hour but your overall earnings would go up.
Part of the problem is because the CAA abolished PPL Instructors. It wouldn't be so bad if we had the US licensing stages, but a UK CPL is OTT and unnecessary just to teach PPL. It costs people a fortune to get a CPL and they want to recoup some of the cost and also it looks like it gives FIs ideas above their place on the ladder. Yes they're professional pilots, but usually with low hours and only an R22 rating. There's no way they'd get a 'professional' job other than instructing until they've built up some hours and they need the hours as much as the stude needs the instruction.
Moderators.
This is wandering away from what the original question. Would a thread comparing SFH rates and FI rates around the world be a good idea?
Now I'm confused about what the FIs are saying. Some say FIs get £40 an hour. Some say the school charges that for instruction but keeps some and doesn't pay the FI the £40. If that's true either the student is subsidising the SFH cost or the school gets a hidden profit.
I've done some training in the States and you know where you stand. $XX for the helicopter and $YY for the FI. The school gets $XX and the FI gets the $YY. Your not expcted to pay extra for any time he spends checking helis, doing odd jobs around the school when he's not teaching. I don't know if they get paid by the school for that extra work or they accept it as part of being on the low rungs of the aviation ladder but it's not included in the amount you pay for the FI. Either way, the student isn't paying for it in his FI charge.
I agree with Bronx. £30/40 an hour for PPL instruction is way too much. As Whirlygig says, its all to do with supply and demand. If the cost of learning to fly wasn't so high there'd be more people able to do it and the demand would go up. You might get less per hour but your overall earnings would go up.
Part of the problem is because the CAA abolished PPL Instructors. It wouldn't be so bad if we had the US licensing stages, but a UK CPL is OTT and unnecessary just to teach PPL. It costs people a fortune to get a CPL and they want to recoup some of the cost and also it looks like it gives FIs ideas above their place on the ladder. Yes they're professional pilots, but usually with low hours and only an R22 rating. There's no way they'd get a 'professional' job other than instructing until they've built up some hours and they need the hours as much as the stude needs the instruction.
Moderators.
This is wandering away from what the original question. Would a thread comparing SFH rates and FI rates around the world be a good idea?