Fixed-wing or Rotary career? (incl Changing licence to Rotary)

[Clintonb]

fixed wing training then convert to helicopters

Hi there

Wondering if anyone can help me out here. i'm a South African and European citizen i've done research on fixed wing and rotary training i've read and been told in South Africa and in Europe people do their fixed wing up to commercial and then with the hours they have they go on to rotary commercial minimising all the hours they have to do making it cheaper. fixed wing is a lot cheaper than rotary in these countries rotary being usually 20-30k more than fixed wing.

i've looked into the states to get an FAA to get my foot in the door plus its cheaper and it seems like fixed wing and rotary training are similar prices i've called few schools in the states to see wether its the same as other parts of the world doing your fixed wing building hours and then converting to helicopters they say yes you can do it also in the states but they say why spend double the money on getting both licenses i tried to explain in depth what i was trying to get but it didn't seem like they understood.

So if i do fixed wing training in the states up to CPL leaving with 200-250hr then go do my CPL rotary training will i have to start from scratch again with PPL or will i just need to do 30-40 hrs with an instructor and do few exams as fixed wing emergency procedures are different to rotary????

Hope i've been clear and specific enough. Any info to shed some light would be much appreciated.
Thanks for all your time. Safe flying

[Whirlygig]

Clintonb, you've been researching aviation training now for over a year.

Do you have the right to work in those countries which accept the FAA licences? If not, you need to do your sums carefully as to whether it is cheaper to do FAA licences first. You might be better off getting South African licences as it is still reasonably cheap there.

Secondly, it is a MYTH that helicopter pilots all did fixed wing first and that it is cheaper. If you only actually want to fly helicopters, then train for helicopters. Your thread from last summer should have helped to answer that one.

But ultimately, you need to decide what you want and aim for it. If you aim for nothing, you will achieve it with tremedous accuracy.

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

Yea i know i been looking for ever but trying to get all my research done and dry my resources so i know i have covered everything.

In South Africa doing your helicopter training is a lot more expensive than doing your fixed wing and I'm sure anybody that is south african or lives and training in south africa can even agree with me on that. Thats why since Ive been here in south africa for the past 10 days I've heard that they do their fixed wing first and then go over to helicopters and finish the final 100 hrs making it cheaper than doing the full 200 hrs in a helicopter. but looking more into helicopter training now in the states it seems as helicopter and fixed wing are similar prices.

but when searching the sites i dont see any night rating for helicopters or included in the programs so is night rating even regarded in the training in the states for helicopters?

another thing I've been told by calling helicopter schools is that once you got your commercial license its best to get a turbine rating in like a jetranger which boosts your chances of getting a job and that even though times are hard there is a shortage of helicopter pilots around the world because its harder to get than fixed wing.

Thanks for the time look forward to your answers.
Safe flying

[Gordy]

is night rating even regarded in the training in the states for helicopters?

Yes you train at night, but there is no such thing as a night rating---it is simply not required because you are allowed to fly at night as long as you meet recency of experience requirements.

another thing I've been told by calling helicopter schools is that once you got your commercial license its best to get a turbine rating in like a jetranger which boosts your chances of getting a job

Nope. They just want your money. There are companies out there that will train you in a turbine aircraft when you have the enough hours to meet their requirements.

there is a shortage of helicopter pilots

This is a joke right? There are lots of helicopter pilots. There IS however a shortage of helicopter pilots with "certain skill sets". Here in the US, it is getting more difficult to find quality utility pilots. But as Whirls pointed out----unless you are qualified to work here, you will not get a utility job here.

[Pandalet]

Also, I'm not sure who you've been talking to in SA, but neither of the helicopter schools I'm in contact with there recommend people do fixed wing before helicopter. You've probably found a school who do both, who would like to boost their income a bit.

When I looked at this, it didn't work out much cheaper to do fixed wing qualifications if what you really wanted was rotary. There was a very slight difference, but it relied on doing everything in absolute minimum hours, and added a lot of time before you were actually qualified. Most rotary employers don't seem to care about fixed wing hours (unless you have many thousands of them, and even then, it's not a major factor), so unless you have a specific use or desire for the fixed wing tickets, beyond as a stepping stone to rotary, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. YMMV, of course.

[Clintonb]

Thanks for your quick replies.

Gordy thank you for the info just quickly maybe you can answer this or someone on the forum might know this on the FAA documentation will it state that you did a night rating or something like that just incase you decided to go fly somewhere else like EU, Australia anywhere and need to convert your license whether they would question if you did your night rating.

Another thing i keep hearing this license is a license it doesn't matter where you did your training and hours are hours whether you do them in timbuktoo, africa or south america its states in your log book you have so many hours and thats that. true or false

Understand if we talking fixed and rotor for license its 2 different licenses but is that the same for hours then???

thanks again for your answers

[Whirlygig]

Clintonb, I'm not sure whether the full implications of what other people are telling you are sinking in or whether you are just selecting the replies you like but .....

Your log book will show the times at which you were flying and then it will be fairly obvious whether you flew at night. Secondly, an FAA CPL(H) will count for squat in Europa (and likely SA) so you would need to convert to a JAA licence.

Another thing i keep hearing this license is a license it doesn't matter where you did your training

I have no idea where you keep hearing this because it certainly isn't on Pprune. Unless you have the right to live and work in the US, an FAA licence is not much use to you. You will have to convert your licence to whichever country's regime you are entitled to live and work.

All your questions have been answered time and time again; please read all the replies and not just the ones you like.

There is no easy way into this business and if you think aeroplanes are expensive, try helicopters. Cost seems to be a major factor in your decisions so I suggest you start working out some budgets.

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

i hold both British and German passports and south african which i never use. so I'm guessing either british or german will allow me in the states to work. but firstly you have to find the job in the states to go to the Us embassy to see whether your back ground check and the interview goes well and they approve. if anyone that is a none US citizen and working in the states wanna give their 2 cents???????

[Whirlygig]

so I'm guessing either british or german will allow me in the states to work.

No it won't - that's what everyone has been trying to tell you. You cannot just pitch up at immigration of any country and say, "I want to work here". It doesn't work like that.

Why would any USA helicopter operator employ you over and above one of their own citizens?

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

Hey Whirlygig

So found out that i do have the right to work in the US i called up the USCIS i have the right to work in the US giving that i have no drug convictions, been in any kind of terrorist acts or any other criminal convictions that might be on record even a DUI will set me back. Anyone in the world has the right to work anywhere in the world depending on what your citizenship is as to the procedures needed to get a visa and whether you have any criminal record.

Any America who doesn't have a criminal record can work say in Dubai for Emirates or in asia etc and same goes for Europeans, Australians etc unless you don't have any criminal record understand that FAA is American issued license but you don't need to be an American to hold that type of license understand if you want to work in the US then you need a work permit but there are other places in the world that take on FAA such as Asia so if an American or European holds a FAA license, the license doesn't determine whether they can fly and work in asia but of course whether you can get a work permit but if you can visit the country without a problem then i don't see why there would be a problem to get a work permit unless again i stipulate it will be hard to get a permit if you have a criminal record.

I know i have been doing research for the past year but I'm just trying to use all the resources i have and know myself that i have covered all areas so once i have made my choice in flight school etc i know that i haven't left any stone unturned.
yes i know helicopters are hell of a lot expensive than fixed wing i never said helicopters where cheap or cheaper than fixed wing so don't know where you read that i just know doing your helicopter is a lot more cheaper in the states than in south africa try doing your helicopter license all the way up to CPL in south africa for no less than R750 000 = $109 000 and thats not even including housing or food or books.

Im just going by what I've heard as there never seems to be a right answer but I'm sure there is no wrong answer either. but I've been told that to do your helicopter license it is cheaper to do your training in fixed wing and get the hours and then convert over to helicopter which will minimize your hours needed to do in helicopter and you leave with 2 types of license. yes i understand you will have minimal hours in both but i just wanted to find out how is it in the states with that, as i have researched in Europe, Australia,South Africa and Asia about it. plus there are schools in the states that do helicopter add ons so there is that option but yet again i know that you have to choose one or the other unless you win the lottery and can build your hours in both licenses to have enough to be hirable in fixed or helicopter.

But thanks again for your help you have given me some useful information and thanks to everyone else for giving their 2 cents really appreciate it.

[Bravo73]

Clintonb,

I'm going to try and help out Whirlygig here because you don't seem to be listening to what she is actually saying. Either that or you are still slightly confused about the situation.

Do you have a US passport? Yes/No. If no, you CANNOT work legally in the USA.
Do you have a Green Card? Yes/No. If no, you CANNOT work legally in the USA.
Do you have a US WORK Visa? Yes/No. (Remember, this is not the same as a Visa Waiver, a Tourist Visa or a Student Visa). If no, you CANNOT work legally in the USA.

From what you have already told us, it doesn't sound like you have any of the above. Therefore, this means that you DO NOT have the 'right to work' in the USA.


I hope that this is clearer for you.

[Whirlygig]

Thanks Mon Brave ...

Clintonb, I'll try again ....

but I've been told that to do your helicopter license it is cheaper to do your training in fixed wing and get the hours and then convert over to helicopter which will minimize your hours needed to do in helicopter and you leave with 2 types of license.

You keep telling us what you've been told but please listen to the responses here. It is NOT necessarily cheaper to do both, it will NOT necessairily make you more employable.

You are just as unlikely to get a job with 400 rotary hours as you would be with 250 rotary and 300 fixed wing hours for roughly the same cost.

just know doing your helicopter is a lot more cheaper in the states than in south africa try doing your helicopter license all the way up to CPL in south africa for no less than R750 000 = $109 000 and thats not even including housing or food or books.

I've flown in South Africa and compared with Europe, it is cheap. As I said, you have the right to live and work in SA and therefore a South African licence would be cheaper than a European (JAA/EASA) one as Europe is the only other area where you have the right to live and work.

You could try the Green Card lottery if you have another skill/qualification.

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

Hey Bravo73

i brought it up with the USCIS as im looking into application form EB-5 Alien Entrepreneurs to start up a business with a friend who is US Citizen. so talking to the USCIS they state that I'm eligible for a work visa unless i have a criminal record which i don't have. But they state if i do want to work in the US first I'd have to find the job in the US in order to apply for a work visa i cant apply without a written confirmation from the employer that they would like to employ me.

In any country you go to you need to have confirmation that they have a position for you to work in their company. no one is stuck in their own country and not allowed to work in any other part of the country unless as you stated you are a citizen or eligible for to have a work visa.

Only thing that can stop me from having a work visa is if i have a criminal record, so people dont drink and drive because that will restrict you from getting a work visa in any country and takes a longer process.

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by Clintonb

But they state if i do want to work in the US first I'd have to find the job in the US in order to apply for a work visa i cant apply without a written confirmation from the employer that they would like to employ me.

Hypothetically, yes, they are correct. But, in practice, this is not going to happen. Unless you are particularly special or have a particularly unique skillset (NB being a helicopter pilot is NOT one of them), then a US company is not going to offer you a job unless you already have a 'right to work' in the USA.

[Whirlygig]

In any country you go to you need to have confirmation that they have a position for you to work in their company.

Indeed. Therein lies the rub.

Cheers

Whirls

[Epiphany]

10/10 for perseverance Whirls. Some people have to go through the process and learn for themselves before the 'eureka' moment strikes.

[Whirlygig]

Must be my motherly instincts

Cheers

Whirls

[Thomas coupling]

Whirls: two things:
(a) I think what clintonb is saying is that he has "special needs"..........

(b) congratulations on becoming a mother....aaaah

[Pandalet]

To put this in a slightly different way, in the hopes of penetrating:

You can work in any country you like, IF you can get a work permit. Getting a work permit usually (certainly in most Western countries) requires an employer to certify that they want to employ you and sponsoring your work permit (they also usually have to show that they can't find anyone locally suited to do the job). Given that baby helicopter pilots are not a scarce commodity anywhere, you simply aren't worth the extra hassle of sponsoring through a work permit when an employer could get the same basic product ready-to-go in a local baby pilot.

Work permits issued to foreigners are generally very restrictive, and tied to a particular job for a particular employer. If you leave said employer, your work permit expires and you either need to find another employer who is willing to sponsor you, or bugger off home. So although you may be able to get a work permit as an entrepeneur, I rather suspect you'll find said permit doesn't allow you to do random freelance work for helicopter operators.

Additionally, if you wish to fly commercially in JAA-land, you need to have at least a JAA validation of your foreign license. Showing up to a job interview to fly (say) G-reg helicopters commercially with an FAA (or SA) license will get you laughed at. In all that investigating you're doing, look into what exactly is required to convert to JAA from elsewhere.

...and if you think there aren't any wrong answers, try just leaping in and spending a bunch of cash on whatever seems like it might work, with whichever school takes your fancy. Although the right/wrong answers are subjective (i.e. they depend on you and what you want to acheive), there are plenty of wrong ways to get where you want to be.

[CharlieFly]

Fixed Wing to Rotary Conversion?

I don't know if anyone will know the answer to this but:

If you hold a fixed wing ATPL and want to convert it to a heli or for that matter add a heli to their license, what do you have to do? Can this be done without having to go back to the beginning of training?

Cheers