MD80 SLF: if you saw no flaps at TO??
 

Occasional SLF here with a few hours toward PPL. Speculation on a possible cause of the recent tragedy in Madrid got me playing some "what if" scenarios. You're on an almost-full MD80. You know it's hot and high out there because you checked -- you enjoy being informed. You're finally heading for home after a return to the gate for a "minor technical difficulty", where "minor" means "takes only two hours to fix so no you can't leave the plane". As the takeoff roll begins you glance out the window and notice that the flaps and slats are still retracted. The pilot shows no sign of stopping. You're sure by now the warning horn should be going off up in front, but still you accelerate down the runway. You have about 10-15 seconds left to decide and to act. What would you do? Understand I don't ask this to make light of what happened. I'm honestly interested in what an experienced pilot riding as passenger would do in this situation. Would you quietly rationalize that "they must know what they are doing", or run up to the front to pound on the door and scream "ABORT! NO FLAPS! NO FLAPS!!!"? Best Regards, T.

This actually happened to me on a B734 a few months ago. We taxied onto the runway and immediately commenced the take off roll. Within about 5 seconds the engines spooled down and I glanced back from my seat (1C but single class!!) to see that the L/E devices were retracted (couldn’t see the T/E devises) after rolling down the runway for about 10 secs the power was applied again and I again looked back to see the L/E devices were now extended. However after a few seconds the power was then reduced followed by another few seconds rolling before the power was reapplied and we took off.

What can you do? Nothing. You have to rely upon the crews training and aircraft safety systems for your own safety, else go by train or boat.


That's not to say I was overly happy about the situation and this carrier is now on my no fly list.

There's nothing you can do. If you can even see the flaps, you are so far back you can't do anything. You will be brought down by sky marshalls or cabin crew if you make a run for it. The pilots probably won't even hear you. They may not even abandon the take off even if you can get that far in the time available. I suggest tighten your seat belt and stop trying to monitor everything and enjoy your trip- that's what aviation is supposed to be about. We have a peculiar failure here of a back up monitoring/alert system. 2 separate failures together caused the accident. That is where the cure is, not in 180 people all trying to check the flaps are out before takeoff!

I used to share similar concerns, but discussion on here of an incident (Continental MD82 I think) illuminated the fact that modern airliners have warning bells for when the driver tries to take off without flaps. I learnt even more after my first Fokker 100 flight (they don't usually put the flaps out for take off!).

Now I just cr*p myself when it gets slightly bumpy - though interestingly in the days when cockpit visits were still allowed I sat in the jumpseat for a rollercoaster ride into Schiphol and wasn't bothered in the slightest. I think it must be a control thing (or at least being able to see the guys in control). I liken sitting in the cabin to being given a lift in a car, but having to sit on the back seat with a blanket over my head - unnerving.

Yes, with Rainboe on this one.

ZFT,
Unless your captain had calculated take-off performance from an intersection but actually commenced from closer to the downwind threshold (longer Take Off Run) then the take-off calculation is invalidated by ambling down the runway as you report.
There is always the possibility that it was done intentionally to check something.

Comments here and in other threads certainly suggest to me that, if we are going to do anything unusual which can be observed by passengers then the captain or first officer should mention it beforehand to reassure pax & CC.

Now that it appears that non deployment of the slats/flaps may have been the cause of the Madrid crash, I doubt very much that this ommission will contribute towards an accident for a very long time. Crews will be triple/qaudruple checking these settings, just in case.

Basil

I don't disagree with you. It may well have been something intentional. That's why I was deliberately vague about location and carrier. The point I was trying to make is that as a pax there is nothing you can or should do. (Personally, I doubt whether it was normal as there were a couple of other events just before the flight that did have me more alert than usual and I won’t be using their services again).

For the record it was a 12,000’+ runway and the take off roll commenced on the displaced threshold.

I believe there was an incident when the pilots of an aircraft were on the take off roll when they noticed (probably due to t/o warning horn) that the flaps had not been extended.

One member of the flight crew then decided to extend the flaps as the aircraft was still rolling. Unfortunately the flaps took several seconds to get to the correct position and as the aircraft took off at the set speeds the required flap position was not reached.

The end result was a crash. I do recall the incident took place in icing conditions and was a contributing factor.

Some airline SOPs require mandatory taxi back onto stand post RTO no matter when the RTO took place for maintenance inspection of brakes and there temperatures. This gives them time to cool so they can be at the most effective in case the aircraft rejects again on T/O. This event will most likely mean the filling of an ASR at some point along with associated tech log entry.

With this in mind crew reluctance to incur further delay may elect to continue.

Just to get you all thinking! Better to reject and reconfigure then take the airplane and yourself to a place neither of you have been, i.e in the testing environment be it in the simulator or the testing phase during aircraft manufacture.

Please note I'm not trying to justify or criticise any action taken by the air crew on this or any other incident, I am just highlighting the point so we can think about the situation and all learn from it.


Rgds,
AKA.