Refuse to fly to hurricane?
 

Should one refuse to fly if there is a risk of a hurricane catching up, when staying in hotel during ground stop at the destination, eventhough company says go?

I can't believe that any reputable company would want to put it's crew, aircraft or passengers in danger by flying them into a hurricane zone. Naive - maybe!

That didn't take long!:E

Are you FD crew? If I was a passenger on your flight I'd put my trust in your sound (I hope) professional judgement. If you felt it wasn't prudent to fly I'd expect you not to - and not to be bullied by some company official sitting nice and comfy back at base :)

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Thanks for the links.
Company has been doing this for many years but being new in the business it just made me worry a little bit...

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Rainboe is right on target.
My personal experience is in the Pacific, where they're called typhoons.
Airlines are generally quite conservative with their planning in such cases.

The question isn't about flight safety, it's about the crew's safety in the hotel if the hurricane goes over while they are there.

But if you are planned to go where a hurricane is expected to hit while you are staying in the hotel waiting for the return flight days later.
The incomming flight is not the problem... Is it fair that the company expect one to go there taking a personal risk?

Start by checking your wx; METAR, TAF and FC. Check your wx charts too.

If you are within the wx limits and wind limits, you are ok.

If you are in doubt, there is doubt.

Keep it simple, dear colleague (???)

The scenario I am trying to make here is a little bit beyond TAFs and METARs...
I keep it simple - question is: would you go if a hurricane hits you while you are in the hotel?

danishdynamite:

if you are concerned, and you have a right to be, just call in sick. see a doctor, say: I haven't been sleeping well, I'd like to have a few sleeping pills, but need a note from you saying I can't fly while taking them.

My airline flys a great deal in hurricane country and snow country. There have been crews "snowed in" for 5 days on a trip with just ONE overnight.

they were stuck. safe, but stuck. now, some male pilots could take an advantage of young attractive girl fa/s...but that isn't the topic.

me, I would hate to be stuck anywhere but home for 5 days.

good luck!

Don't be naive enough to believe that the company wouldn't send you to the location to wait out the passage of a hurricane, they will try. Don't let anyone suggest it hasn't happened before, it has. Watch the weather/storm forecast carefully, if it is forecast to pass close to your destination start quoting 'duty of care'. :eek::ugh::ugh:

Oh, I dunno, hurricanes (or typhoons) can be kind of interesting.
Sat through at least two in HKG, when I was working for SQ.
We stayed in the Excelsior Hotel, and the folks in the Dickens Bar were quite a friendly bunch during the big blow, outside.
You could actually feel the building sway in the wind.
As I say....interesting.:}

I was recently in Cuba when Gustave went to the West of Havana so I was about 200-250nm east of the center when it was a category 3. The hotel looked after us and to be honest i have experienced windier days at home in autumn.

However if I could see that there was a category 4-5 coming over the top of my intended location and the company were insisting that I stay there I would invite them to talk to my lawyer about due care and attention. this link is excellent for making an informed decision http://www.wunderground.com/tropical...y.html#a_topad and personally i would not have a major problem with Ike.

Sevenstrokeroll I do hope you don't work for the same airline as me as no doubt you don't think about your colleagues when taking such selfish actions.

Quote: This is not a fair weather job only- your duty is to try and complete your task. If you are unable to bring yourself to operate to the Caribbean in hurricane season, may I suggest another career? But to let the company down with 'I feel sick today' to get out of it? No- do your job.


I have serious reservations about this advice. Your job is to try and complete your task SAFELY. Having done the job then it is the company's requirement in law to exercise 'duty of care' towards their employees which would include intentionally placing you in the path of a hurricane.

There is already a precedent to this situation and the advice to get another career smacks of huge 'macho' idealism, airline pilots are required to exercise due concern if there is any doubt, you are doing so.

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I can't believe that I'm reading this.
As Rainboe says, people in 5* hotels are not the ones affected. The poor in shanty towns are. Methinks people are watching too many disaster movies.
Per

Rainboe

Mostly I agree with you but the company does have a responsibility of care as much as we the pilots have a duty of care to do our jobs to the best of our ability. Now thats say there is a big cat 5 bearing down on Cancun and I mean the eye predicted to hit. Nothing is going to be going in or out so why not keep the crew out of harms way in Miami and soon as the eye has passed position the crew in so that they are ready to operate the return sector. The argument of the company that we need you there during the storm is a farce as Cancun was shut for days after Katrina so the crews that were left their suffered appalling and life threatening conditions needlessly and in the end where unable to operate as had no rest or proper food for days. The point i am trying to make is that there is a limit to what is acceptable and what is not.

What's the worst that could happen??.....stuck in the hotel bar for a few extra nights with some nice F/A's....sounds like a good trip to me!

I take it by your last post Rainboe that not even you would want to be in the path of a CAT 5 then?

I found myself holed up in a hotel on Miami Beach for four days during the passage of a hurricane.

I have absolutely never had so much fun in my flying career and, if I had died, it would have been with a great big smile on my face!

JW411 bet it wasn't a CAT 5 because the yanks would have had you out of there faster than a greasy chip;)

As I said before anything up to CAT 3 I have no problem with even if the eye makes a direct hit, anything above would be shear stupidity to stay.

What about flying to earthquake zones? You could be hit by an earthquake with no warning. Surely that's a good H&S reason for not flying there.:E

(for reference I'm currently between the San Andreas Fault and the Hayward Fault)

Read my previous post about what is and not acceptable.

An earthquake is the unknown a CAT 5 hurricane isn't when the forecast is almost for a certain hit. It would be like jumping into the jaws of an Alligator and waiting to see what happens:}

Well exactly so; two of my mates were in Istanbul when the last big earthquake struck. They were living in a very tall modern hotel.

The captain got out of bed and got himself into the car park PDQ. After a while, he realised that he hadn't seen the F/O yet so he called him on his mobile phone.

F/O was back in his bed having survived the event and couldn't see a lot of point in standing in a wet car park which did not have a guaranteed health and safety certificate!

As to one of the previous postings, I don't think you can actually be forced out of your home even in the USA even if you decide to sit it out.

Then the F/O made a personal choice to go back inside, no one forced him to!

Everyone is different and for the record I am no fan of H&S I'm sure they would have kittens if they came along for a ride in a Pitts Special when I am trying to pull the wings of it. But I do reduce the risk by having a base of 5000ft and wear a parachute. Yet wild horses will not drag me onto a roller coaster.

In over 37 years of flying, I cannot remember any crew member ever refusing to fly to a destination that "might" be affected by hurricanes, typhoons or cyclones etc.etc.. If the weather is forecast to be above your minima on arrival (or you have 2 alternates that satisfy this requirement), then surely you are obliged to operate the flight as per your contract?
Perhaps you should spare a thought for your colleagues and their passengers who will be waiting for your arrival, so that they may keep the expected schedule.
Hurricanes, typhoons, cyclones, tornadoes, blizzards and fog, not to mention earthquakes, are part of the natural world's phenomena - if the thought of encountering any of them frightens you, then don't leave home! Your training and experience should help you deal with them on duty.

Symbian:

"Then the F/O made a personal choice to go back inside, no one forced him to!"

Sorry shag, you didn't read my posting properly.

The F/O never got out of the hotel in the first place. He thought along the lines that there has been an earthquake and he was still alive in his lovely bedroom and warm and he was still breathing so why the hell move.

The fact that the F/O (and me for that matter) was ex-military might have something to do with the decision-making process.

I see that you are into Pitts Specials. I could put you in touch with one of my old mates who is ex-Rothmans. Send me a PM.

Been in 3 hurricanes, or the ground effects thereof, including Andrew when it hit the Bahamas.

Was something of a non event: we, I was SLF on holiday, had a hurricane party on the balcony of the hotel: all the delayed Brits cracking open the booze we had planned to take home.

Our biggest concern was the guy with the dog who always sat in the parking lot next to the hotel.

Next hurricane in Florida, all the septics were evacuating the Gulf Coast: complete non event: we all went to the beach wave jumping next day.

One of my pilots was at Flight Safety in Houston when Rita was coming through in 2006. We flew him home and sent him back a couple weeks later to finish the course.

Point8six

I think you might have thread drift as the original question was is it acceptable to leave a crew in the path of a hurricane not about the limits we operate to.

JW411

apologies for not reading your post properly and lets not get into the military civil thing else will get messy;) But he still made a personal choice to stay where he was, he wasn't ordered;)

Lastly just taken some nice pics of the outer rings of Ike shrouding the bottom half of the sun shine state.

When Katrina came to the US, I was directed to make several flights in the area as it approached, and then right through the area of eye as it made landfall around New Orleans.

I made flights through the areas as the bands came ashore, but the later flights when I was assigned to fly down through the middle of the hurricane, I refused. The dispatchers seemed blissfully unaware that there was any hurricane at all "What hurricane?" I was contacted at one point by the chief pilot and threatened with my job every fifteen minutes, for five hours, under pressure to go. I still didn't go...but kept making printouts of the weather to save as evidence in the event he pushed it past the telephone and into the courtroom...which is where I'd gladly go for one foolish enough to question my decision not to fly in the weather.

Don't they have 'Extreme Weather' in 'Danish' Flight Sims?

How do you think the 'Old & bold' BOAC pilots survived back in history flying on Propellers in a force 10 gale?

No thread drift SYMBIAN. The question was whether or not he should go to a destination which might be affected by a hurricane after arrival. It is a question of contractual obligation. If he felt that he and his crew would be put in danger by his company's insistence on operating the flight, then the best option would be to discuss, prior to departure, any alternatives for them, other than staying at the destination and enduring the effects of the hurricane. Refusing the flight can, in my opinion, only be valid if the weather is forecast below limits on predicted arrival.

Point8six

I agree that you should never refuse to operate a flight whilst the limits allow it is what we get paid for and personally I enjoy it when I have to use my knowledge and experience to do it safely.

However there is no way I would won't to be under the path of a CAT 5, look at Ike and Cuba where people have sadly died. This is in a country where they have a well rehearsed evacuation plan since they lost hundred's back in I believe 61 or there abouts and made a commitment to keep their citizens safe.

There is absolutely no need to leave crew in since extreme conditions and the evidence is in Ike only a Cat 3 when it hit and reduced to 2 during its transit. Yet the crew that were there are now been evacuated as with katrina they are not in a fit state to operate due lack of rest and sustenance. So what was the point of leaving them their in the first place!

Some thoughts... Depending on your level of experience, and your equipment, how CLOSE you will skirt a hurricane vs stay at home will be the first issue. You won't be flying through them. The second issue is once parked. Leaving a plane out on the ramp or in a crappy hanger during a hurricane is a bush league move. This advice also goes for tornados, hail, ect...you might miss the party up the air, but your plane might get it on the ground while your in the hotel that night.