BA085 21st April, Engine Failure?
 

I was on this flight from Heathrow to Vancouver (747-400) and we had an engine failure or compressor stall event on take off. The aircraft was very close to take off speed, having already rotated, when there were 2 or 3 loud bangs from the stbd outer engine accompanied by flames out of the tailpipe. The pilot closed all the throttles- no reverse thrust was used, and braked very hard to a standstill. Quite a lot of fire engines appeared almost instantaneously and we were escorted back to the terminal. No further technical information was given other than to say that the brakes had been cooked. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about this incident, was it a bird strike, compressor stall caused by the strong crosswinds that day or something else? We subsequently left 5 hours later on a replacement aircraft.

Interesting.
Was that replacement aircraft from OpenSkies ?

'Already rotated'............. Someone from BA like to walk us through this SOP!

And you think this idiot with 1 post, knows anything?

I know not of the incident but I can assure you as a BA Captain of 18 years, service if they had "rotated" they couldn't have stopped.

In fact scrub the last. Everyone who is actually a pilot knows that.

That begs the question, are you even a pilot? (and I don't count PPL or any sort of light aircraft flying in that question)?

Hello, TNG42,

according to both radar track, ACARS messages and flight plan systems BA85 departed London Heathrow normally on April 21st, and arrived on time in Vancouver.

It's only Flightaware, that shows no status for the flights and gives it a significant delay.

Are you sure about the date April 21st as well as the other details in your message?

Servus, Simon

So, Nigel Normal, if 1 post makes you an idiot (and we all started somewhere), what level does 12 posts take you to ? :rolleyes: Your comment seems a tad unfair.

Welcome tng, sorry for that unwarranted namecalling; Not everyone is like that on here, but you seem to have made a pilot unusually angry for some unknown reason.

I would hazard a guess that your aircraft hadn't rotated from the actions carried out thereafter.Perhaps it just seemed that the nose had risen slighlty .
Just glad all are safe.

BA crew resource management must suck with an experienced captain sliding the edges for peanuts. Maybe it's those 18 years nigel.;)

Wow, I'd just love to fly with Lord-Captain of 18 years Nigel Cawthorn-Sneezewort-Brambleby. :D

He's obviously one of these highly evolved human beings who is never wrong or never makes a mistake. Would be an absolute pleasure to fly with. Quite obviously above everyone else. The kind of chap that turns up in the bar and wonders why there is no-one there when they all said they'd come down. :confused: Newsflash Nigel, they are all at another bar because you are the sort of uppity twit that gives your colleagues at BA a bad name.

Yes thank you nigel-****, most pilots (obviously not PPLs - they are not "pilots" after all) would know that it is grossly unlikely that the crew would have rotated and then aborted, perhaps you might have explained that in some nicer terminology.

Nigel - wow, the way in which you replied to that comment says to me that perhaps you need to get out of the flight deck before your head gets stuck any further up yourself. Well done your a BA Captain of 18years...
I hope i never have the displeasure of working with you.

:=:=:=

Wrong Date
 

Sorry about the date it was 21st March. As for the rather vitriolic attacks, I was just a passenger and the only thing I've held a pilot's license for is a glider, but my memory of the event is that the aircraft's nose was definitely lifting. Inevitably as a passenger in the back you do not necessarily pay a lot of attention, you are paying someone else to do that and you are not in a position to do much about it.

If the nose was lifted and then the brakes applied at LHR, a 747 will trundle off the end at quite a hefty speed. Nothing has been said about it within the company so I would assume a stall/surge of some sort. (happens quite regularly so non event really). The fact that you said no reverse was selected means the aircraft was not above 100knots. I know as a pax it can seem quite a hair raising experience, however it is a well practiced event. I'm surprised no information was passed to you from the flight crew after the event.

For those attacking BA pilots (again), please don't tar us all with the same brush like the Independant (today's front page). Most of us are 100% professional and take a huge amount of pride in our jobs.

Regards. :)

Hello, TNG42,

now we are talking - that flight shows a delay of 324 minutes on all flightplan systems, ACARS and radar track. But unfortunately I have no knowledge of the incident or what the reason was.

Like others said, I very much doubt however, that the crew had already begun rotation when they rejected the takeoff. At that point, the airplane would no longer be able to stop before the end of the runway.

The reject certainly did occur at a point before or latest at decision speed (V1), otherwise it is an unconditional liftoff.

I don't know, what gave you the impression, that the airplane's nose had already started to raise, but I am pretty sure, that you noticed a rotation downwards as the brakes (on the main gear) were applied. As a result, the airplane would go onto it's "knees", resulting in a very noticeable downwards movements of the nose especially for those sitting before the trailing edge of the wings. This might give the impression as if the nose was already airborne and came down on ground again, when in fact it doesn't.

The bangs suggest something like a compressor stall, certainly a reason to reject takeoff. A compressor stall may be caused by a lot of reasons, one possible (without any claim it was the case at your flight) for example being a gust of wind causing a (rare) disruption of airflow at the inlet of the engine.

Servus, Simon

The reason you may think it had started to rotate (which it hadn't) is because of the feeling we get from acceleration. It gives you the false sense that the nose is pointing upwards.

You are correct, it actually doesn't. On the Airbus we have surges and stalls more often than you might think. But most of the times there are no indications to the pax as they don't always make loud bangs/flashes/flames.

Not correct. A bang could be anything, bird hitting leading edge, a toilet door slamming shut, wheel burst, aliens, etc etc. none of which you would high speed reject for. A lot of surges/stalls will auto recover and thus a high speed reject could give you more problems than continuing. Remember we are normally sitting quite a long way from the engines, so can't hear as well as if you are sitting over the wing. One single bang would probs not be enough for me to close the thrust levers.

:ok:

I have experienced two engine surges on the B747-400 - both just after rotation. In both cases there was a muffled bang (as heard in the cockpit), but nothing untoward on the EICAS (engine instrumentation). If such an event had happened before Vr, I doubt very much if I or my co-pilot- if it was his/her sector - would have rejected, as both 'bangs' could have been interpreted as tyre failure and a high-speed rejection is not advisable ( degraded braking due tyre/wheel failure ).
As has been pointed out, the lack of reverse thrust indicates the incident happened below 100kts (unless the a/c was dispatched with a thrust-reverser u/s and the adjacent engine suffered the surge).
The advice states for a rejected take-off, "prompt and aggressive action will ensure a successful outcome". Sounds like the crew did just that.:D

Thank you for all your information. While I cannot be sure that the aircraft had rotated, my memory was of the attitude of the aircraft was rotating, and certainly seemed nose up when things started going a little pear shaped. The bangs were each associated with a flash of flame from the engine tailpipe (stbd outer engine). I remember while travelling to the airport that there was a stiff crosswind and thinking we might have an interesting first few moments of flight, so a plain compressor stall seems the most probable cause, though after over 30 years of frequent business flying, this is my first incident of this nature. Although I wasn't paying much attention until that point (I definitely was after it), my impression was that we were really quite late in the take off run and my first thought was of how much runway was left. If, as you say that once the aircraft has rotated (and it was completely full and probably quite heavy) you are committed to take off, then clearly we weren't quite there yet, but there wasn't much runway left by the time we stopped. Certainly the crew's response was extremely rapid as the throttles were shut within no more than a couple of seconds of the 2/3 bangs, and the braking was harder any I have experienced in an aircraft. It is interesting that others comment that there would be no instrument indication of this event, (unless of course the engine lunched itself)

thanks for all your comments!

Lets be sure about one thing..................... the aircraft had NOT rotated:{

and nothing had gone "per shaped":ugh::ugh::ugh::rolleyes:

"If, as you say that once the aircraft has rotated (and it was completely full and probably quite heavy) you are committed to take off, then clearly we weren't quite there yet,"

You are committed to take off at V1 speed, not when you rotate.