Why do I have to say "heavy"??
 

Hello Community!

Returning from my San Francisco flight with my 744 following thought: Why do I have to tell the Americans that i am heavy every single transmission, while the Canadians are interested in that fact only on initial contact, and then, on the Europeans Side of the Atlantic the controlers aren't really keen on conferming that fact with me.... Well, i guess they just look at their atc-Stripe lying in front of them? :hmm:

Ok, lets just take my arrival into US Airspace the other day: i had to say "heavy" (otherwise it's "against the LAW!!")... Well... i am not that heavy anymore!! We weighed around 260 t, and with that, we can easely climb out a lot of heavely loaded twin engines in that airspace.

From my A320 years i can remember taking a lot of time climbing from FL 340 to FL 350 with an A321 fully loaded. In comparison the 747 happily jumps from one level to the higher one! Even when we just departed for a long haul flight.

Let's take sequencing upon departure & arrival:
that would actualy make sence, but only in this portion of flight! To inform the controller (who probably already knows) and everybody else around you that you are "heavy".

I believe, we can abolish that call out!

I always thought heavy reminded the controller of the additional spacing required for wake turbulence behind him, 5 vs 4 or 3 miles for spacing for landing especially.

I think the "heavy" term relates to wake turbulence - more important in the circuit, I'd argue. I recall that it applies to aircraft over 90 tonnes (or thereabouts) so on the B757 you can start off heavy and then not be anymore... :D

AFAIK...which ain't much....
All "INITAL" calls are prefixed "Heavy" [if you are], otherwise, just c/s.
watp,iktch

The Rules
 

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf The UK Bible...all 182 pages of it. (Stop drooling all you Air trafficers):}
Chapter 2 1.8.5
"Aircraft in the Heavy wake vortex category shall include the word "HEAVY" immediately after the aircraft callsign in the intial call to each ATSU."

That's what your meant to do but it just doesn't happy on the sunny side of the pond! I wonder why.........:hmm:

Why use heavy?
 

Hi Charly,

as said before, the term "heavy" is related to your wake turbulence, not your performance. The US saw a few accidents with Citations and similar planes being flipped over and crashing on the ILS, so they came up with using "heavy" in the callsign. It's actually not just for the controller, but also for the guy behind you. If you were sitting in a Citation, you might want to know who is 2 miles in front... One of these accidents involved a 757 and a CJ, and actually triggered that the 757 now qualifies as "heavy", even though it is below the weight for the "heavy" category. This also explains why a canadian area controller up north could not care less, since you don't fly around slow and dirty just before going oceanic...

Hi KingAir77,

it absolutly makes sence in the Approach phase of a flight. Often you hear the Tower controller advising you that the "preceeding is a heavy one", and it helps!
But why do I have to tell for example Salt Lake Centre (Upper airspace) every single transmission in cruise flght(!) that i'm heavy?

Surely being "heavy" is all relative? If a PA28 was behind a Citation then there could be a wake issue, why not class it as a heavy too?

I believe, and sit to be corrected, that the "problem" 757 was to do with ultra quick certification using 73 data in the process.
Certainly that`s what l was told after rolling through sixty degrees against full control deflection in a SF340, with 4 mile spacing on approach. Local conditions were a calm summer evening in otherwise still air and vis that went forever.
The term "heavy" for the 75 came in soon after, possibly the timing of this was coincidental.
If l remember correctly prior to 1993 it was certificated as medium.
I know some had big fuel tanks and plainly the induced drag between models varied.
Wing tip vortices is the problem on take off but with a "heavy" it can be one on landing too despite relatively low fuel weight.
`spose it`s best to know what`s in front regardless.
Having to keep saying "heavy" between atc units? Sounds good to me.

Chewy
 

If this sounds patronising please forgive me, but it`s not just a case of size more scale.
If a fly went passed your face two feet away you wouldn`t feel the draft, but if a swan did it?

Heavy
 

Take it as a compliment that you are flying one of the finest airplanes ever built. And if you should forget to say it don't worry about it, US controllers are very nice to work with. They realize they work with you, they do not try to work against you like they do over here on a regular basis.

The "Heavy" is for wake turbulence reasons. The 757 is required to be classified as heavy because it flipped a Westwinf inverted on approach out in the mountains of the US somewhere. They determined the wake from the 757 was a lot stronger than the weight (I mean mass...or do I?) should indicate.

Chewy... In the UK aircraft types are categorised for wake vortex purposes and ATC will provide the requisite separation.

On first contact with most UK ATC units pilots are required to state their aircraft type to confirm the flight plan information held by ATC. For this reason it is not mandatory to keep saying "heavy" as the controller is well aware of the type of aircraft he is dealing with. Requiring pilots to state the type of aircraft is because airlines are renowned for changing aircraft at a late stage and not informing ATC!

:ok: Ok, that is a good explanation. Thank you Heathrow Diretor.

While we're at it, why do we have to report "localizer established" before we get a clearance to descend on the glidepath in the UK? (Lots of fun when the frequency is congested and you are about to fly through the GP!)

prim2... Your question has been dealt with on here many, many times. It's a peculiar UK procedure to ensure saftey. There are a lot of movements going on underneath ILS tracks into major airports and several serious incidents have occurred due to pilots descending to low altitude when "cleared for the ILS". This has resulted in large aircraft flying at low level over London - I kid you not!. I understand that discussions are taking place to change the procedure......

I doubt if the R/T is often so busy that pilots cannot get descent - I did the Heathrow Final Director task for 31 years and don't recall that happening too often.

They do get a bit keen on the word "heavy" in the US. In fact to the detriment of other things. I have been told to "taxi behind the heavy" before - now I'm sure wake isn't a problem on the taxiway and which "heavy" did she mean?

Bonkers.

Putting it in your callsign in times of close separation and on intial contact is a good idea I think, but for area control it is a waste of time I reckon.

I stand to be corrected here - but while in the UK, and Europe generally I think, ATC normally provide wake votex spacing between aircraft (I'm talking about IFR aircraft under positive control - I know there are exceptions) but in the US it is more commonly a pilot responsibility and so knowing that the aircraft that you are following is a heavy becomes more important.

nice one director, but it's unlikely that the BA283 (etc) is going to change to an A319 any time soon.

nurj

nurjio... Maybe, but the other way round... you wouldn't believe..

"But why do I have to tell for example Salt Lake Centre (Upper airspace) every single transmission in cruise flght(!) that i'm heavy?"

Very relevant in the RVSM world if your flying something smaller than the whale. I don't care what documents say what, 1000 ft below a heavy and you stand a chance of a wake encounter. I know from recent experience.

But how did the "heavy" call sign help you exactly in that special situation? Wouldn't an advise by ATC be more reasonable than a wild guess if that "Heavy" who called in 10 min ago could have been the one?

For what it's worth; we pilots in the US will say "heavy" when we are below FL180 and when above usually do not. some do, most do not. Like it has been said,not really necessary. A lot of times our flight number is known by the controllers to be a heavy aircraft but is substituted for a nonheavy. It's just the way it works here.

I'm just SLF, but a number of "heavy" pilots as well as non-widebody pilots have admitted/suggested to me that the insistence on appending "heavy" on every transmission is more ego than anything else.

"I'm flying a widebody, with everything that entails, and you're not. And I will remind you of that not just when I check in, but every time I ask for a ride report, too."

Greg

"But how did the "heavy" call sign help you exactly in that special situation?"


"Traffic 12 o'clock 5 miles opposite course a thousand above, a heavy 747"

My policy after getting rocked is to look at the winds and ask for an offset to the upwind side. I might not for what ever reason catch the type, but I'm tuned for the term heavy.

Courtesy
 

All legalities aside, isn't declaring "heavy" a courtesy thing? Whether you're at 410 or on approach, the other guys on the radio appreciate knowing who is sharing the sky. Is it so hard to make an extra effort be courteous for your brother aviator?

In the US you only use the term "Heavy" when talking to Departure/Arrival control, tower, ground, or clearance.

You do not use "Heavy" in the enroute phase of flight.

It's so that I don't come truckin' in for a landing right behind you in my little Cessna 150 and get tossed upside-down by your wake turbulence...

But then again, maybe I should be paying attention. I'm from Canada and I can't imagine ever running into this problem as long as I pay attention to what's going on around me, like pilots are supposed to do!

"You do not use "Heavy" in the enroute phase of flight"

Reference please.

FAA 7110.65 Air Traffic Controller Manual.

2-4-14. WORDS AND PHRASES

Use the words or phrases in radiotelephone and
interphone communication as contained in the
Pilot/Controller Glossary. The word “heavy” shall be
used as part of the identification of heavy jet aircraft as
follows:

TERMINAL: In all communications with or about
heavy jet aircraft.

ENROUTE: The use of the word heavy may be omitted
except as follows:
a. In communications with a terminal facility about
heavy jet operations.
b. In communications with or about heavy jet aircraft
with regard to an airport where the en route center is
providing approach control service.
c. In communications with or about heavy jet aircraft
when the separation from a following aircraft may
become less than 5 miles by approved procedure.
d. When issuing traffic advisories.

Cool, thanks.
Only one problem, FAAO 7110.65 is for ATC not pilots.

This is true.

It is also usually in the FOM of the company you work for if they have 'Heavys' in their fleet. I have worked for 4 airlines that have the B747 (and have flown it for three of them) and they all had this in their FOM. It is really pretty standard.

You don't have to do it of course. It is just SOP.

Unless they recently changed the rules, and I missed it, you don't have to. If anything, other pilots hearing the "heavy" on Center's freq. wonder who the newbie is. "Stop it, they don't care that you're a 'heavy'"

On initial contact with ground you advise him that you're a heavy (certified 300,000lbs or more - 90 metric tonnes). "Kennedy ground, Connielingus 24 heavy taxi." Tower/departure/approach use "heavy" on all radio calls. In the U.S. enroute controls centers don't need, or use, "heavy" in the call sign.

757 is not a "heavy". It does have it's own wake turbulence seperation. Flipped a Westwind on it's back going into SNA (Santa Ana, Orange County, CA-about an hour's drive south of LAX). Research into the accident found out that the wake turbulence for the 757 is much greater than expected for the size/weight of the a/c. As far as I know the exact reason isn't know but they believe it has to do with the continous flap design(fuselage to aileron) of the 757.

Another part of the problem is the 757 is very slick. You tend to get 'stuck' at 170-180 kts needed more flaps to slow while descending on the G/S. Even with gear it's often a waiting game to slow below 162 kts to get final flaps out. Both of those issues sometimes mean leveling off to reduce airspeed. That causes us to go above G/S. The Kahoe 4 Arrival in SNA keeps you high. So we're constantly above the G/S going into SNA trying to slow down and configure.

I'm just surprised we havn't killed any SEL departing off the parallel runway that is typically slightly downwind of our departure path. Due to noise abatement the 757 typically is climbing at 22-23 degrees pitch to 800'. No SEL a/c can match that. IMO it's just a matter of time before more die there.

"I'm just surprised we havn't killed any SEL departing off the parallel runway that is typically slightly downwind of our departure path"

Indeed there have been a number of cases of GA SEL crashing on the parallel (19L) at SNA.

The current US AIP, page GEN 1.7-12:

In the U.S., the word “heavy” is used in all communications with or about heavy jet aircraft in the terminal environment. In the en route environment, “heavy” is used in all communications with or about heavy jet aircraft with a terminal facility, when the en route center is providing approach control service, when the separation from a following aircraft may become less than five miles by approved procedure, and when issuing traffic advisories.

Of course we yanks love to contradict ourselves, AIP again:

29.8.4 For operations conducted behind heavy
aircraft, ATC will specify the word “heavy” when this
information is known. Pilots of heavy aircraft should
always use the word “heavy” in radio communications.

It was reduced a while back to 255,000 lbs. For you UK types, 18214 stone 4 pounds. :)

I've got that in your flight plan, H/B744/Q and a little H in the radar data tag for your aircraft.

test 1234567

I dont know... heavy here and heavy there... people stop taking notice when its heavy all the time and really when you are passing below someone most of the time you have no clue who it is even if said airplane calls heavy every other second.

It common knowledge that even a medium can create problems if you pass thru his wake at higher levels... so imho the heavy call can go.

duece

I am currently doing my ATPL theory with BristolGS and came accross this in the communications section, hope it helps.:ok:

'Aircraft in the heavy wake turbulence category include the word "HEAVY" immediately after the aircraft call sign in the initial call to the aerodrome control tower and the approach control unit, FASTAIR 324 HEAVY.'