Instrument time & Logbook
 

Ok,

Im fairly new at the regional airline biz and we fly between FL180 - 250. Most of the time above the clouds so you log it IMC actual but what about when the weather is clear do you still log it IMC actual since i.e. Class A airspace no VFR allowed, or do you log it simulated/hood?
Thanks

Costin

hi costin,

I am a fresh CPLer who is still at university. I asked the same question to my university lecturer and I was told that you only log time as IF only when you have been in cloud. apparently there are captains with thousands of hours with only a couple hundred hours in actual IMC conditions.

dont know how correct this is. can someone else confirm this.

happy flying
lemel

from what i understand, under jar, if you are on an ifr flight plan, then all airbourne time is logged as instrument time.

however, some log books do have a column for actual instrument/imc time, so i guess thats where you would log time in actual cloud.

i do stand to be corrected though...

IFR vs VFR
 

As a mere PPL, my understanding is that if you have a VFR clearance you are VFR - if you have an IFR clearance you are IFR.

You don't have to be clagged in by solid IMC.

Even if you are IFR and get a clearance to do a visual approach, you are still under an IFR flight plan and hence continue to log instrument time.

DGG

Under the FQRs
 

You can only log Instrument time; if you are manipulating the controls in IMC. how you can actually keep these records is not quite so clear.

I am not certain how the JAA view the problem, but I dont bother to log it at all. Once you have an ATPL, I can see no real reason for recording such information, but then the CAAs of this world are often on a different planet to the rest of us.....same with NIGHT......

Windy

OK, well my logbook does have that IMC actual, simulated columns, but i am flyin with a JAA licence. If i fly to Rome and it was a 2.0 flight i would put 1.7 IMC actual, but i dont know if its right. I think i should scrap this logbook and redo a nice new one. So if i get one with just the IFR column then i guess 1.7 would be valid eh??

Canadian/US logging of time is different to JAR logging of time - there is no requirement under JAR to specify actual instument time - just time when operating under IFR. In the US/Canada as has previously been stated you can only log instrument time when in actual IMC.

So if you think you may end up having to apply for jobs in North America where a minimum IMC time maybe required then I would continue logging any actual IMC time.

Instrument time is when the aircraft is controlled by "sole reference to the instruments". If when you are flying you are looking out and seeing the horizon and the ground and using those ques to control the aircraft, as well as the instruments - it is not instrument time.

By that definition, almost all airline time is instrument, as you are IFR and in making nav and control descisions you use the instruments, regardless of the conditions.

For licence issue, simulated and actual instrument time are different, and that depends if you are under the hood or in IMC (or in a sim). When you have your licence, log it as instrument unless you have been flying visually.

DGG is wrong.
You log "actual" if you're inside a cloud or possibly over water at night with a new moon.
That is if you're flying GA.
Once you start working for an airline, commuter or major or similar, and you spend all your time in the flightlevels, you don't log it all. Because nobody cares.

Costin,

For what it's worth here is my take on this. In the old days we recorded "flight by sole reference to instruments" as "IF". ie when you were actually flying the aeroplane on the dials. JAR requires pilots to log the hours spent under IFR, an entirely different thing and you may or may not be flying "IF" while IFR. In my old logbook I had columns for sim and actual IF; when converting to JAR I totaled these columns and put them in a spare column to which I still add the hours I spend hand flying on the dials. In the IFR column I started with this total multiplied by 4 (the CAA issued a statement a couple of years back that IFR hours could be derived from IF hours in this way) and I now add all flight under IFR to that column. As a result I now have about 21/2 thousand "IFR" hours of which around 600 are "IF".

I don't suppose anybody will ever ask to see these two totals but it suits my purpose.

3 Point

Dependends on the country.

Many chaps I know use the standard of when on an IFR plan they log all air time as IF actual time saying they are using insrtuments to navigate etc.
Canada when on top, night thats ok.
Australia can only log it when actually in side a cloud, ontop or night when you can't see a thing is not counted as IF.
So a typical logbook from 3 pilots doing the same flights the 3 countries with say 1000hrs would be,
UK 1000hrs, 800 actual IF
Can 1000hrs, 300 actual IF
Aust 1000hrs 30 actual IF

in my Bus
 

I take off in VNAV and V Path, Co pilot pressed: AP ON at 400ft.....I sit back and do nothing until expected to turn off the runway...autopilot has done everything. I am in the left seat, my co pilot set up the FMS, and I for all practial purposes did nothing...yet I was "in Command", "handling the Controls", "on an IFR Flight Plan", and "night".

I suppose I should log it as instrument time..........or just stop complaining and actually take a command decision and have the fish...or perhaps the chicken...time for CRM....we both have the fish.....windy

thanks alot for your help boys. i get the point, i used to fly in canada so thats why i really asked the question but i see now that under jaa i can log such a big amount of IFR time. Connection fee gave a good example and it makes sense. once again thanks a bunch.
if anybody flyin around italy or germany and hear a CarpatairXXX callsign give me a shout.

As 3 point says, subtle difference between IFR and IF. If it's an IFR flight plan, then all time is IFR. How you're supposed to record the actual amount of time in a flight actually spent in cloud for the IF is beyond me, hence that column is my logbook is blank!