Logbook signatures?
 

To all those in the know about log books:
I have just completed my type rating as a first officer and am working towards unfreezing my ATPL (ie gaining 1500 hours). The question is:
For each P1 sector that I fly (as handling pilot), do I need the Captain's signature in my log book?
Thanks!!

Surely as a first officer you'll be logging P2 on all flights. P1 or pilot in command is always the captain. At least thats how I understand it according to the JARs.

I would suggest that whilst you are pre ATPL that you do get your logbook signed by the captain you are flying with. I don't know whether you have to do this by law, i.e the CAA, but it will make it easier to validate your flying when you come to upgrade your licence.

Log your P1 flying as P1u/s (under supervision)

Good luck with getting your ATPL

bmimainline

Hi Sundance,

When I unfroze my ATPL (UK JAR) about 18 months ago, the CAA requested a letter from my line manager on company paper stating all the hours in my log book are true and correct. They did exactly that and my licence was issued with no probs. I did not have any individual captains signatures.

As far as logging hours, all PNF is logged P2, all PF is logged P1/S. Tou can't log P1 until your the skipper.

Hope this helps

REAC :ok:

I have a jar compliant log book - it has a section for P1, P2, Dual and Co-pilot. when i'm flying as an FO, do I need to log the co-pilot time and P2/P1us?

Thanks for the replies guys.

152 wiseguy, yes all the hours will be logged as P2 or P1 U/S.

It seems that an ATPL can be validated without all the signatures (thanks reac!), and it is one less thing that the skipper has to sign at the end of the flight! But, it might be prudent to continue to get the signatures just in case. Back to square 1! Has anyone had a definitive answer from the CAA? I can't seem to get an answer out of them!

Thanks :D

You know, the number of questions about this - it would be a huge public service if the CAA, JAA, FAA or at-least somebody would issue a short, concise and authoritative guide to filling out logbooks. If they would then put it in the public domain, all the various publishers could reproduce it in the back of their logbooks for ready reference.

G

Genghis the Engineer
 

Even that wouldn't work mate, since the various authorities cannot agree amongst each other on a common interperetation of the rules governing logbooks!

With out wanting to hijack the thread (but sort of doing so anyway), what logbooks do people use? The CAA one, Pooleys, Jeppesen or any others?
Cheers.

Spurious Log Book Entries

Have never come across cases of false log book entries in the RAAF/RAF/USAF as verification was/is fairly tight.

Is anyone aware of cases of phantom hour entries in civil aviation and what might the penalties be for such a crime?

Parker Pen Hours
 

Milt - yes it happens. There was a famous case in MYT I think a few years ago - made the papers and the chap got the sack I think. Also think he went to court.

Have heard of a few other cases too. Despicable behaviour !

One chap added more hours and when questioned said - 'Well I'm much better than the FO's ahead of me on the seniority list, so I should get a command first'. Hmmmm.

Quick question:
If you just completed your type rating, and Im assuming this is your first airline 'job', have you included the 500 multi crew hour requirement before the authority can issue you with a JAR ATPL?

I've had a quick look at LASORS at the Guide to logbook annotation (Section A, Appendix B or page 56 of 610). In case B, Co-pilot performing the duties of PIC under supervision of pilot-in-command, the designation in the logbook is to be PIC U/S or P1 U/S and the time is entered in the P1 column. It then states that :- Exactly what is meant by "subject to certification" I haven't got to yet, but to me it implies it would be a good idea to have the PIC sign your logbook just in case the PIC is unable to certify the time at a later date.

Regards
Stoney X

This raises a question in my mind;

Have always "backed up" my logbook by photocoping it every few pages Stamps, Signoffs and all in case it gets lost.

Would the CAA accept this copy in the event of the unthinkable?
I know of one PPL Logbook that got lost and was vouched for by the School, but by Unfreezing time.......... that takes a lot of vouching for.

Regarding the MYT incident, think it was actually the (ex-) RAF that caught the guy out eventually when the anecdotes didn't tally.

The CAA (UK) does not require the Captain to countersign your flights (had a chat with an FCL guy the other day). The IAA however requires every hour to be countersigned that you count towards the TT1500 or the 500MPA.

As the JARs are not law, but recommendation only, states will have and keep their very own rules. So are for example the LASORS unheard of outside the UK.

regards, IP

Sometimes the F/O asks me to sign his loogbook. I do it because
it can certainly make no demage. If you ever leave the JAA area
then you may need some verification of flight hours and types
flown. For such cases I certify the loogbooks in my official position
within the company and sign with the title. That may help one day.


NG

It has been my experience that logbooks are really important to low timers. If interviewing for a job, letters from previous employers seem more important. If you have been flying for an airline a good rule of thumb is about 5-600 hrs a year. More than that is suspect, The exception is charter, or commuter, then you might expect higher. Logbooks are usually not so reLIEable, sad really, they are a kinda diary to reflect upon in years to come.
My advice is save copies of base or sim checks, route checks, ect. They are a good backup. As for me, I had no trouble getting someone to sign off my shuttle flights, or moon landings.

Agree with Irishpilot, when I unfroze my ATPL, no signature required and no letter from the company, some people carry their logbooks and ask for it to be signed at the end of a flight.
I only get it signed after a line check or something like that but stll no requirement for it.
As far as logging the hours go as co-pilot when it is your handling sector it must be logged as P1 U/S.
Hope this helps.

Logbook choices
 

In my previous employment I was recommended a computerised logbook programme, which after extensive research I invested in.

It is Skylog Pro and is fantastic, idiot proof and JAR approved. It will:

1. Negate the need to carry out any addition.
2. Breakdown your hours however you want.
3. Has a database of all major airline airports.
4. Calculate day/night times per sector.
5. Calculate FDP etc.
6. Retain currencies for all ground requirements eg medical.
7. Seperate simulator section.

This is by no means an exhaustive list of its functions but the other major plus is the ability to back up to floppy or CD. It also prints out in a very professional looking format, which certainly seemed to impress Cx.

The cost is £59 and you can order on-line from a uk company (name escapes me, search for skylogpro). You can even download a demo version from their website.

Hope this proves useful.

RDJ