Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > Questions
Reload this Page >

Is the airline sector in denial about its imminent collapse?

Wikiposts
Search
Questions If you are a professional pilot or your work involves professional aviation please use this forum for questions. Enthusiasts, please use the 'Spectators Balcony' forum.

Is the airline sector in denial about its imminent collapse?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 12th Sep 2020, 17:37
  #1 (permalink)  

Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bourton-on-the-Water
Posts: 1,017
Received 16 Likes on 7 Posts
Is the airline sector in denial about its imminent collapse?

The London Financial Times blog Alphaville has a piece in which Hubert Horan Home Page
suggests that decades' worth of industry consolidation have reduced any incentive for the sector to properly restructure itself in the face of 85 per cent declines in revenues due to coronavirus, and that the whole thing could collapse imminently.

Worth a read?
https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/09/...-email:content

airsound is online now  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 18:46
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: in a cigar lounge smoking a Partagas P2
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Absolutely - the first 10 minutes alone are worth listening to.
foxcharliep2 is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 19:20
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
any chance you can post the text, I don't do click-bait requiring others access to my computer
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 19:42
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Москва/Ташкент
Age: 54
Posts: 922
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Hubert Horan is an independent aviation and transport consultant with more than 40 years’ worth of experience in the sector. He came to prominence as an early but prescient critic of Uber’s business model, arguing it would be impossible for the ride-hailing juggernaut to ever recoup the billions of dollars of losses it had incurred during its expansion phase without becoming a global taxi monopoly. This was due to the fundamental nature of how the taxi market operates. Horan has frequently expressed amazement at the market’s ongoing willingness to support Uber’s multi-billion valuation, given the company’s failure to ever turn a profit and dire outlook.

In recent months, however, Horan has turned his attention back to the aviation sector, which he says is in the grips of a similar sort of suspended reality. He puts this down in part to duopolistic and monopolistic structures (driven by decades’ worth of industry consolidation) that have reduced any incentive for the sector to properly restructure itself in the face of 85 per cent declines in revenues due to coronavirus.

In his mind, the unexpected hit of coronavirus would have been bad enough in a competitive landscape, but in the current framework the sector is even less capable of absorbing the fallout due its too-big-to fail nature. That ensures a future of government bailouts, not-so-stealth nationalisation and rising ticket prices, with ever poorer accessibility and route choices.

As he noted in May:
The large number of competitors that were critical to all prior industry restructurings are gone. In the US, $43 billion in desperately needed cash was stripped via extractive stock buybacks and by inflated executive compensation for the managers who believed that that the industry would never face another serious downturn.

Barring the miraculously rapid development of an effective vaccine, no international airline companies are viable going concerns. Bankruptcy-type processes can work when a small percentage of capacity faces liquidity problems but cannot possibly deal with a situation where worldwide demand has totally evaporated.

Airline capacity and employment worldwide will need to shrink far more than anyone had thought possible. This will mean effective nationalization of the industry (including many suppliers), and the establishment of reorganization processes that convince the taxpayers (who will fund it) that the huge costs and sacrifices will be shared equitably.
FT Alphaville spoke with Horan to get more insight into how he sees things unfolding for the industry. His message, sadly, is not an optimistic one. Nor is he convinced that the pain has been properly priced in by investors.

Sorry, can't attach the audio. But well worth listening to (quite long around 45 minutes).

However did say:
Estimates 90% of normality will take 6 years with significant bankruptcies along the way.
Near term bankruptcies - Airlines highly dependent on Int'l Travel most likely (US Delta/American/United) but not ruling out domestic carriers (US Southwest).
European Flag Carriers economics driven by Long Haul - very risky to bankruptcy.
flash8 is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 19:44
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Great , need more doom and gloom
Meester proach is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 20:09
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: belgium
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
rotorcloud is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 20:26
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 1,352
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
No industry is going to survive an 85% decline in revenues, so hunkering down while hoping for a miracle is surely the best strategy.
Against that are reports that Chinese domestic travel is pretty much recovered, so the rebound is good if the virus is neutralized.
etudiant is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 20:45
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
People won’t travel without a vaccine. It’s quite simple. It’s game over for now. Facts are facts. Not even £1 fares will save them.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 21:38
  #9 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: In the shadow of R101
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Recent reports show that antibodies from Covid19 last only a month or two, if the vaccines being tested cannot do much better than this then having been vaccinated will be essentially worthless.
Feathers McGraw is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 22:11
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: sierra village
Posts: 671
Received 111 Likes on 58 Posts
Recent reports show that antibodies from Covid19 last only a month or two”

Do you have a link.?

My understating is that only a single individual has been identified who has suffered a second infection.
lucille is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 22:11
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Age: 49
Posts: 52
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
People will want to travel - this is being demonstrated already, with significant recovery of the domestic China market.
Build some confidence with workable track/trace apps etc and at the very least, we should see domestic European recovery in the nearer term. If we don’t move away from the doom and gloom narrative, then what hope is there for all our futures....?
JOSHUA is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 22:48
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 704
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, for sure. Economy, with the airline sector as a part of it, will collapse and disappear completely. We'll all move back into caves, not being able to afford homes, let alone travel, and will revert to a natural economy, trading a chicken for a bag of potatoes (or rather a few handfuls of potatoes as there will be nobody to manufacture bags).

All the doom and gloom aside, it's a game of agility, just as everything in life. The strong airlines will do whatever it takes and survive. The weak and poorly managed ones will collapse, if they already haven't. People want to travel even as we speak, although nowhere near in as great numbers as pre-COVID or post-vaccine. The greatest deal breaker for now is not the lurgy in itself but the shambolic, knee-jerk reactions of governments changing travel restrictions in the drop of a hat. And many countries have already been hit seriously badly by this. Economies relying on tourism suffer loads. And, at some point, they will have to liberalise their approach as the alternative means leaving a good third of their people starve or kill one another in the street for a bag of groceries. State aid cannot last forever, especially when there's no income from taxes.
PilotLZ is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2020, 23:09
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 654
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
One thing is not well understood I think. If the airlines sector collapses= no movement of people= no tourism= MILLIONS of homeless= riots= etc etc
This is not driving a taxi which by the way relies on tourists mostly.
bringbackthe80s is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2020, 00:20
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 3,489
Received 147 Likes on 82 Posts
Originally Posted by Contact Approach
People won’t travel without a vaccine. It’s quite simple. It’s game over for now. Facts are facts. Not even £1 fares will save them.
Er, no, the reason people are not travelling is because, A. Some countries have closed their borders to non-resident travellers and B. 14 days quarrantine is just too much to take just for a business trip or even a family holiday.

But, yes I agree, its game over.
TURIN is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2020, 00:53
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 405
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Some of us are not allowed to travel more than 5km from home, let alone to another city or another country.

And this is in a liberal western democracy!
On Track is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2020, 03:34
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: on the ground
Posts: 444
Received 32 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw
Recent reports show that antibodies from Covid19 last only a month or two, if the vaccines being tested cannot do much better than this then having been vaccinated will be essentially worthless.
Recent reports show a literal handful (I think three?) of people who have been shown to be infected a second time.

Vaccines are rarely 100% effective - but they don't need to be. 90% would be ample, even 40% would be helpful.
nonsense is online now  
Old 13th Sep 2020, 05:27
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 3,985
Received 33 Likes on 14 Posts
It's a matter of when not if the industry will recover. The planes already exist, they're parked all over the world. They have no other use than to fly. (You could say the same of pilots). The world population is still increasing and we'll never lose our desire to travel. The only thing that could prevent a recovery is a viable alternative.
rudestuff is online now  
Old 13th Sep 2020, 07:22
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Oz Domestic will bounce back fairly quickly. Once they have Melbourne under control, in 8-10 weeks they are looking at all borders open internally, that’s if Melbourne goes to plan. Essentially one big island closed for business from outsiders but those inside can move around.

NZ did that and it’s Dom market was essentially producing pre covid numbers a week in.
wheels_down is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2020, 08:05
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 49
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't really understand all the drama related to air travel and meeting in general.
Guys, it is a respiratory disease ; a tough one, a nasty one, the one you do not want to catch but the principle of infection is the same as with other respiratory viruses : you mainly need exchange of droplets. If EVERYBODY wears at least a surgical mask or above (forget about the others) when less than 1.5m from another person, there is no effin way the virus can be spread around - be it in an aircraft or in a meeting room. With that in my mind we can at least recover short-medium haul as it is obvious that flying 10-12 hours on a LH flight and changing 2-3 times your face mask is highly uncomfortable, but that's fine, we will leave that for the moment we have hopefully an effective vaccine.
nickler is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2020, 09:09
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 8,372
Received 360 Likes on 209 Posts
Nickler - you are correct about the virus - but that's not REALLY the problem - as TURIN said its the uncertainty - if I book a flight for travel in a month's time what are the chances that it will be cancelled, changed, or banned ? Pretty high I'm afraid - and getting your money back - ho, ho, ho

No Western Democracy can say " sure a few more people are going to die but it's worthwhile to save the airline industry" - the media and the voters would crucify them (oh for the days of Lee Kwan Yew and commonsense).

I'm (hopefully) travelling this week - but am I certain it'll be routine & trouble-free - no way. The Leisure market was built on cheap as possible mass transportation with 30 minute turnarounds - business on certainty, lots of choices and ability to vary your flights. Until there is a vaccine there won't be any certainty - and a lot of airlines are bleeding to death. When it does come back it won't be a great rush back - it will be tentative, slow and in a much reduced industry.

Asturias56 is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.