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Two advantages of a plotting chart?

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Two advantages of a plotting chart?

Old 15th Apr 2017, 16:38
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Two advantages of a plotting chart?

Fairly new to flying Oceanic and my company procedure is to use plotting charts. Happy to do that despite a small number of ex KLM Quantas and GSS instructors who are adamant that plotting charts are a 30 year old relic.

The two main justifications (apart from SOP adherence) appear to be

1- An FMS typing ability check .....if lat and longs entered incorrectly the chart would (eventually) show you are off track.

( I wonder also if with the lido flight planning system it is possible for the ATC flight plan info to be incorrectly transferred onto the flight log)?

2- That you have an awareness of the heading to turn onto in the event of a forced descent perpendicular to all the NAT tracks ( we fly random routes above tracks).

The no chart brigade counter

1- that the thickness of a pencil line is greater than the new GNE 10NM distance....so it would be too late by the time you noticed it....and that ADS would mean a message from the ground would be sent to you before then ( although I'm not sure what level of track deviation this represents...mini GNE.).

2- That entering it into route page two or keeping a copy of the sig weather / NAT track overlay also covers this.

Interested in views from across this spectrum.

Last edited by alosaurus; 15th Apr 2017 at 16:40. Reason: Typing error��
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Old 15th Apr 2017, 18:42
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Planning chart considered a must, European A330 operator.
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Old 15th Apr 2017, 19:26
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It was 20 years ago, I admit. We used plotting charts. It gave good SA. We kept an up to date record of where we were and where we were going, and all the ATC clearances, with times for each. I once had an accusation from Canadian N.Atlantic ATC that I had not complied with an ATC climb instruction at Position XYZ. This came a few days after the flight. I recovered the flight envelope and the plotting chart. ATC claimed I was given a climb clearance at Time XY-z at Position ABC. From the plotting chart in the envelope I could prove that at Time XY-z I was 200nm away from Position ABC, therefore it could not have been me. Nothing more was heard.
Further, in todays magenta one a/c crews do not look at en-route charts. We know what SOP's say, and we know what crews do. The plotting chart gave much more SA than the ND/MAP. We plotted all the NAT's and our ETOPS circles from en-route ALTN's. With no airfield circles on ND/MAP and no outside visual references, especially at night, the plotting chart was very crucial in keeping us aware of where we were.
Total dependancy on FMC over the ocean is IMHO opinion not a professional good idea.

I admit I am not up to date on current procedures, but, as we have debated many times, too much magenta line addiction is not good when manure hits the air conditioning. Professional pilots need to be aware and not be taken by surprise.

And, it gives you something to do: monitor your flight. Those who oppose its use might just want to sleep or read the paper. And what will you do when the FMC fails en-rpute?
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Old 16th Apr 2017, 10:01
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I've never flown big distances to have an opinion. But I do have a question. Where do you get the position you are going to plot? If it's from the same system that is doing the flying, you will just be copying the error. Or am I missing something?
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Old 16th Apr 2017, 10:51
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In deed you would if there was one; error that is. That is why 2 FMC's are needed for oceanic crossings. They have been tested to a reliability of 1 in millions, and designed to tell you if they disagree with one another. That was in simple IRS days. Now with GPS the likelihood of error has reduced to 1 in squillions.
But you plot to position on the chart relative to your route and WPT that has already been plotted. If the FMC says you are en-route the 99.999999999% chance is you are. If it says you are off-route then the head scratching starts. So you are doing more than just plotting; you are comparing where the FMC says you are to where you should be.
There will be some old grey hairs who cry, "being back the sextant", and the reply will be, "who's that? A sexy relative?"
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Old 16th Apr 2017, 15:11
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But the problem is.....

FMC coding errors.....a few years back they introduced a new lat long convention which resulted in dozens of aircraft following ( very accurately) the wrong route.

Also seen when manually entered flight plans either (1) Don't spot the half degree or (2) As again happens only too frequently enter the wrong lat/long (normally by one degree).

The another issue is solar storms taking satellites out. We are in a major cycle of solar activity for the next few years ( it is why we have more HF problems than we did a few years back).

The other problem is lack of awareness of tracks flying above them on random routes. Again plenty of TCAS warnings in recent years where aircraft have descended when crossing tracks. Presumably they didn't parallel the tracks because they didn't know where they were.
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Old 17th Apr 2017, 00:21
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So if I get this right, you are confirming a position reported by the FMS with a paper chart with your route drawn on it? The position plotted should be on the line and in an appropriate distance along the route? Just out of interest, how often are errors picked up and what is done to correct them? After all, you now don't know where you are.
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Old 17th Apr 2017, 01:15
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We go into the raw IRS position to plot which is an input into the FMS and should be independant. It is crosschecked with the FMS position.
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Old 17th Apr 2017, 11:10
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alosaurus

The another issue is solar storms taking satellites out. We are in a major cycle of solar activity for the next few years ( it is why we have more HF problems than we did a few years back).
Where did you get this information from? 3 years ago the weakest sunspot cycle for a century peaked and we are now approaching the trough. We are in a relatively quiet period of solar activity.

Solar Cycle Progression | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center
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Old 17th Apr 2017, 12:45
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Originally Posted by Piltdown Man
So if I get this right, you are confirming a position reported by the FMS with a paper chart with your route drawn on it? The position plotted should be on the line and in an appropriate distance along the route? Just out of interest, how often are errors picked up and what is done to correct them? After all, you now don't know where you are.
As GF says IRS can be used. How often are errors picked up ....far too often. What are the consequences....a Gross Navigational Error (GNE) against your name and your company. The only UK company I know of to have it's ETOPS approval revoked was Flyglobespan. They had very few incidents....but one of the big ones was a GNE where a one degree entry error was made.Plotting the IRS or FMS position would have told them they were heading to a point 60 miles away from the one correctly marked on the chart.......had they been monitoring progress. That companies profits nose dived as transatlantic routes were no longer viable.
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Old 18th Apr 2017, 05:43
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I would say one of the biggest issues these days is the limitation of the FMC with regards to coding of 1/2 degree RLatSM NAT tracks. That is what would most likely cause a GNE these days. Strict adherence to a MNPS/NAT HLA checklist should prevent this as well as the CONFIRM ASSIGNED ROUTE UM. It won't be long before CODLC and ADS-C will be required in all NAT HLA so you will be informed of any tracking error before you can work it out from the plotting chart.

Saying that, the plotting chart does help increase SA and would be helpful during certain aircraft systems failures.
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Old 18th Apr 2017, 10:05
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As an airline guy who like most airline guys, does not use a paper plotting chart to cross oceans, I have a question.

We have Jeppesen FlightDeck Pro on our ipads which has an excellent map display and the capability to create waypoints on that map. With just a few presses of the ipad screen screen, we can transfer our flightplan downloaded prior to the flight froma company app onto the Jeppesen app. It takes about 15 seconds and shows the waypoints, airways, etc. with zoom and scrolling capability.

Would the pro-plotting chart guys consider this app to be sufficient as an equivalent to a paper plotting chart?
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 08:12
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Jammed stab...most airline guys DO use a plotting chart (accepting that there is a significant minority that don't). Your question should be answered in reverse.....If you had a Gross Navigational Error leading to a TCAS event (not as uncommon as they should be) would the subsequent investigation prove your system was certified. Is the app certified, is the method of verifying no corruption of data when transferring from flight plan to app verified. What is the contingency procedure for signal failure (which I have seen plenty of times with ipad loction).BTW...not denying this is the probably going to be the way forward....but in my company ipads are not certified for in flight use as primary aircraft equipment.
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Old 23rd Apr 2017, 16:38
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Plotting charts also give an improved SA about your en-route alternates. Given some guys fly 2 or 3 hr diversion times, I suspect the airfield circle will be off MAP on the ND. And, as has been discussed, and ETOPS diversion might need to be to 'nearest suitable' not necessarily the further ETOPS allowed ALTN. Sitting over the middle of nowhere, day or night, without having an idea in which direction & how far your bolt hole is, IMHO is not as professional s it could be.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 03:19
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Originally Posted by RMC
Is the app certified, is the method of verifying no corruption of data when transferring from flight plan to app verified. What is the contingency procedure for signal failure (which I have seen plenty of times with ipad loction).BTW...not denying this is the probably going to be the way forward....but in my company ipads are not certified for in flight use as primary aircraft equipment.
Apparently it has some sort of certification...

"Jeppesen iPad Apps Approved by EASA"
The European Aviation Safety Agency on November 15 made available the results of its electronic flight bag (EFB) technical evaluation which should speed the final approval by local civil aviation authorities of Jeppesen’s new Flight Deck Pro and Mobile TC Pro apps for iPad and iOS. The EASA approval tumbles a significant hurdle for the Boeing Flight Services unit to gain the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) approval needed to sell the new technology to European airlines. The new EFBs can be used in most all phases of flight depending upon individual operations specifications."

I suppose the method of verifying no corruption of data upon transfer is the same as verifying no mistake when using a pen or pencil to transfer information. Look at it and double check that it is correct(and it is more likely that a mistake will be made by the pilot marking down incorrect info.

I doubt that the gross navigation error rate has increased with electronic ipad charts.

No need for worry about signal failure, it is a copy and paste function to transfer info.

Not sure if a paper plotting chart has any official certification but if you can find it, it would be interesting to see.

Originally Posted by RAT 5
Plotting charts also give an improved SA about your en-route alternates. Given some guys fly 2 or 3 hr diversion times, I suspect the airfield circle will be off MAP on the ND. And, as has been discussed, and ETOPS diversion might need to be to 'nearest suitable' not necessarily the further ETOPS allowed ALTN. Sitting over the middle of nowhere, day or night, without having an idea in which direction & how far your bolt hole is, IMHO is not as professional s it could be.
The Jeppesen Flightdeck Pro app map portion also allows you to enter whatever airports you like for situational awareness.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 09:45
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The Jeppesen Flightdeck Pro app map portion also allows you to enter whatever airports you like for situational awareness.

I admit to having operated such routes in the dark ages of pencil & rubber. An FMC was considered almost a NASA designed piece of voodoo magic, and Jeppe paper plates were the crutch of all approaches.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 10:27
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Plotting charts approved in ICAO 007.

Ipads have not been certified for use in UK registered aircraft. The process for certification of commercial equipment is long and very expensive (before you install a £300 bit of IFE in an exec aircraft you will pay in excess of £10,000 for all the required testing). Significant kind of stuff like flammability / battery fire risk etc.

Like I said this kind of system is the future no doubt.....but I always consider what I am going to say to the investigator when the **** has hit the fan as my start point.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 12:57
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I hope ipads have been certified for use, because there's a lot of airlines out there using them all day, every day.
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Old 24th Apr 2017, 13:51
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Originally Posted by RMC
Plotting charts approved in ICAO 007.

Ipads have not been certified for use in UK registered aircraft. The process for certification of commercial equipment is long and very expensive (before you install a £300 bit of IFE in an exec aircraft you will pay in excess of £10,000 for all the required testing). Significant kind of stuff like flammability / battery fire risk etc.

Like I said this kind of system is the future no doubt.....but I always consider what I am going to say to the investigator when the **** has hit the fan as my start point.
From our ops specs....

"_____ airlines is authorized to use an electronic flight bag as described in the following airplane types: All

Hardware of EFB system: Class 1 - iPad (2 and later)
Software application: Jeppesen FliteDeck Pro: (including Terminal Charts, En-Route Charts, Jeppesen Airways Manual).
Authorized to Replace Paper Documents: Yes"


I will show this to the investigator.

Meanwhile, we also have Class 3 EFB's installed in the aircraft(as delivered from the manufacturer) which have video camera views, company publications, Takeoff and Landing performance calculation capability, various apps such as conversion calculators and timers, approach plates, nearest airport function, and enroute moving map display with ownship symbol also can be used as plotting charts and we do in fact manually enter the route into this which gives us a secondary view of where we are, just like a plotting chart.

I think you might be operating without the latest authorized methods in use globally.

As for paper plotting charts...wouldn't mind trying it once on an oceanic crossing but that would be enough.

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Old 24th Apr 2017, 14:27
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Plenty of references to plotting charts and how to use them in the North Atlantic Ops and Airspace Manual. It's a dry old read, to say the least.

Paper charts will eventually disappear, of that I'm certain. In the meantime, I guess we keep doing the plots per company procedures. I suppose total time expended on the chart for an Atlantic crossing is in the region of five minutes and I don't know what I'd do with that extra time.
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