Ladies on the Flight Deck
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Ladies on the Flight Deck
I’m all for diversity, and thoroughly enjoy working with different people on a daily basis in my current job, however it is male dominated engineering. Saying this though, there are quite a few ladies around whom I do get on with. Although, at the moment its hard not to recognise the huge push by airlines in recruiting female pilots, whether this be from online news posts, remarks in newspapers about the male dominated industry (flightdeck specifically), or PR pushed out by the airlines (look at the BA FPP page with the pics of female pilots, Aer Lingus’ recent video of their inaugural DUB-LAX flight with an all-female crew, EZYs Amy Johnson Initiative etc etc).
What I’m wondering, is why the big push? Of course yes, a career as an airline pilot for a female offers the same benefits as that of a man. Although, the same can also be said for the careers of becoming a mid-wife, primary school teacher… and cabin crew, for men. Surely as an industry we shouldn’t be focused on the percentage of women to men, but more on training quality and getting the correct person for the job.
Yes diversity is important, but if man A is from Greater London, and lady B also from Greater London, then really, other than their sex,whats the big push to greatly increase the percentage of lady B’s as opposed to men A’s, other than sex just to prove to on lookers that their company is “diverse”in the flight deck. Airlines are diverse companies, employing lots of females in other roles, so whats the problem?
The point of this isn’t to cat fight with anyone on the point, but more of me to gain an understanding of why its so important, and is a genuine question.
What I’m wondering, is why the big push? Of course yes, a career as an airline pilot for a female offers the same benefits as that of a man. Although, the same can also be said for the careers of becoming a mid-wife, primary school teacher… and cabin crew, for men. Surely as an industry we shouldn’t be focused on the percentage of women to men, but more on training quality and getting the correct person for the job.
Yes diversity is important, but if man A is from Greater London, and lady B also from Greater London, then really, other than their sex,whats the big push to greatly increase the percentage of lady B’s as opposed to men A’s, other than sex just to prove to on lookers that their company is “diverse”in the flight deck. Airlines are diverse companies, employing lots of females in other roles, so whats the problem?
The point of this isn’t to cat fight with anyone on the point, but more of me to gain an understanding of why its so important, and is a genuine question.
Last edited by crowsnest1; 21st Jun 2016 at 09:17. Reason: Spacing errors
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Surely as an industry we shouldn’t be focused on the percentage of women to men, but more on training quality and getting the correct person for the job.
The issue is purely PR. I've flown with as many female pilots who have called out my mistakes as male pilots. I've seen just as many female pilots make greasers as male pilots (and just as many treating the runway as the USS Nimitz).
The issue is not technical, but trying to match the "societal" image of "fair and equal." As was mentioned, females make up 50% of the population, so in theory that should be the same in the industry. But if, as intruder pointed out, females do not make up 50% of the pilot base (it's probably closer to 25 or 30% - exactly the percentage I see in my company).
Many airlines, however, are pressured into showing they are "fair and equal employers," so they have to hire people who would otherwise be considered "unqualified" (by that I mean not meeting all of the minimum requirements rather than not holding the basic licenses).
However, society simply cannot handle hearing anyone is "unqualified" for a role; especially when it comes to women or minorities. So many organizations are "forced" into hiring people into positions that would otherwise be given to a more experienced person.
Like the majority of pilots (and men) I don't care if someone of another gender or race gets a job over me. My issue, and I suspect yours too, is that it is often not a level playing field for everyone. If it were, then we would truly have equality...but equality does not mean hiring all the women and minorities of the world to "fill slots." It means hiring the right person for the job, no matter what "undercarriage, fuselage type, or preference for flight level" they may have.
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With this growing pilot shortage, we should focus our resources and effort on getting EVERYONE to be a pilot. Emphasizing only women is a waste of resources.
As the father of girls who like pink and think being pretty is the most important thing in the world 
, I'm all for a bit of PR that pushes the idea that women can work in male dominated industries. A lot of society seems to be sitting back fat dumb and happy thinking we've got this equal opportunity 
sorted, but the mere fact that some industries are so male dominated for no good reason (it's not like flying an aeroplane involves skills or abilities that women don't possess) would show that we don't have it sorted yet. It's not just a matter of giving equal opportunity, it's also a matter of making women feel welcome here.
I'm not advocating for preferential treatment. In terms of gender split I think interviews given should be roughly proportional to applications received and jobs given should be roughly proportional to interviews. This should be achievable by simply hiring on merit.
There is certainly a place though, for continued promotion of women progressing into male dominated industries. Let the youngsters know it's ok to dream of flying. The same goes the other way as well. Men should feel comfortable aspiring to be flight attendants without it automatically being associated with their sexuality.
, I'm all for a bit of PR that pushes the idea that women can work in male dominated industries. A lot of society seems to be sitting back fat dumb and happy thinking we've got this equal opportunity sorted, but the mere fact that some industries are so male dominated for no good reason (it's not like flying an aeroplane involves skills or abilities that women don't possess) would show that we don't have it sorted yet. It's not just a matter of giving equal opportunity, it's also a matter of making women feel welcome here.I'm not advocating for preferential treatment. In terms of gender split I think interviews given should be roughly proportional to applications received and jobs given should be roughly proportional to interviews. This should be achievable by simply hiring on merit.
There is certainly a place though, for continued promotion of women progressing into male dominated industries. Let the youngsters know it's ok to dream of flying. The same goes the other way as well. Men should feel comfortable aspiring to be flight attendants without it automatically being associated with their sexuality.
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Aerocat,
I agree 100% that our industry could do a lot more to promote itself as an option for women and other groups of the population. I'd love to see the day where the aviation industry is totally reflective of the general population both ahead of and behind the flight deck door.
The unfortunate thing about many of the "Women in Aviation" groups I've had the pleasure of hearing about from my female co-workers is that they focus so much on "breaking the male dominated barrier." Indeed, a recent article on an old co-pilot of mine said (and I paraphrase, although not that much!) "[Her name] is now a Captain for [company name]. She's a badass who loves to ride bikes and fly planes." The article totally suggests that women need to be a tomboy to become a pilot. From my POV that is selling the wrong product.
As an industry we should not focus on "breaking the barrier" so much as simply promoting that it is a cool industry with progression and is an industry where you can still be whomever you want to be. If a female pilot wants to have a family, cool! Your seniority number is growing while you're gone - have fun, and we'll see you when you come back!
But, we should not artificially increase the number of any group just to make the statistics sheet look good. Doing so only puts people into positions that would otherwise be better filled by more qualified people - be they men, women, white, black, LGBT, whatever.
I agree 100% that our industry could do a lot more to promote itself as an option for women and other groups of the population. I'd love to see the day where the aviation industry is totally reflective of the general population both ahead of and behind the flight deck door.
The unfortunate thing about many of the "Women in Aviation" groups I've had the pleasure of hearing about from my female co-workers is that they focus so much on "breaking the male dominated barrier." Indeed, a recent article on an old co-pilot of mine said (and I paraphrase, although not that much!) "[Her name] is now a Captain for [company name]. She's a badass who loves to ride bikes and fly planes." The article totally suggests that women need to be a tomboy to become a pilot. From my POV that is selling the wrong product.
As an industry we should not focus on "breaking the barrier" so much as simply promoting that it is a cool industry with progression and is an industry where you can still be whomever you want to be. If a female pilot wants to have a family, cool! Your seniority number is growing while you're gone - have fun, and we'll see you when you come back!
But, we should not artificially increase the number of any group just to make the statistics sheet look good. Doing so only puts people into positions that would otherwise be better filled by more qualified people - be they men, women, white, black, LGBT, whatever.
Last edited by +TSRA; 22nd Jun 2016 at 19:01. Reason: spelling
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Point taken. I would have to answer that all pilots are equally as bad, regardless of gender, at landing on the right spot and on speed - myself included!
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Aerocat and TSRA:
I agree. There seems to be a need to convince girls that they can be pilots, engineers and many ofher professions traditionally seen as jobs for men. If there is a potential pilot shortage, it's important to encourage applications from all sectors of the population and particularly those who might not realise that they may have what it takes.
I agree. There seems to be a need to convince girls that they can be pilots, engineers and many ofher professions traditionally seen as jobs for men. If there is a potential pilot shortage, it's important to encourage applications from all sectors of the population and particularly those who might not realise that they may have what it takes.
Equal opportunity - the ratio of men to women on earth is around 50/50 so why shouldn't 50% of pilots be women?
Equal opportunity means no bias in hiring - in either direction. Most of the airlines I've worked for seemed to have a noticeable bias towards hiring women which is hardly equal opportunity.
The actual ratio of M to F in the job is a function of who wants to do it, not how hard it is for one or the other to get hired. To get 50/50 would require sexual discrimination on a monumental scale, just as a 50/50 ratio in midwifery isn't going to happen. Methinks there would be rather more customer resistance to that than there ever was to female airline pilots.
Are we to have equal opportunity programmes for wet-nurses next then?
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Originally Posted by +TSRA
Point taken. I would have to answer that all pilots are equally as bad, regardless of gender, at landing on the right spot and on speed - myself included!
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Why don't we just accept the reality that women think differently than men. Therefore, there are certain jobs that women tend to prefer and certain jobs that men tend to prefer. All you have to do is listen(while hidden to the subjects a group of women will talk about compared to men if you want proof).
That is just the way it is.
My theory is that women have a built-in desire to want to help. That is part of the explanation of why so so many ATC folk are female along with other professions such as doctors. As well, being home most days(or nights) to see the kids is part of it.
So, get rid of the gender-based discrimination that makes many wonder how qualified any female pilot actually is, and hire those that interview the best.
That is just the way it is.
My theory is that women have a built-in desire to want to help. That is part of the explanation of why so so many ATC folk are female along with other professions such as doctors. As well, being home most days(or nights) to see the kids is part of it.
So, get rid of the gender-based discrimination that makes many wonder how qualified any female pilot actually is, and hire those that interview the best.
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My wife's not a ppruner but I'll try to paraphrase her thoughts on the matter, she is a professional pilot and was just starting her first airline command at the time she fell pregnant.
She had every intention of getting back into the flying post pregnancy, but to be honest once we actually had the baby, her feelings changed, we just weren't prepared to make those sacrifices. Two kids now and the second one's just starting school, she'll get back into flying in some capacity in the near future but it won't be airline because we both agree that we just don't want both parents being away from home for multiple days at a time and working antisocial hours, like Daddy does.
The unfortunate biological fact is, that it's always the woman who loses her pilot medical certification for several months, when it's time to start a family. And this industry is so brutally hard for anyone, man or woman, once they've been out of it for a while, to get back into it. And it's very unforgiving of part time employment or 9-to-5 options or all the good things you can normally get in office jobs.
She had every intention of getting back into the flying post pregnancy, but to be honest once we actually had the baby, her feelings changed, we just weren't prepared to make those sacrifices. Two kids now and the second one's just starting school, she'll get back into flying in some capacity in the near future but it won't be airline because we both agree that we just don't want both parents being away from home for multiple days at a time and working antisocial hours, like Daddy does.
The unfortunate biological fact is, that it's always the woman who loses her pilot medical certification for several months, when it's time to start a family. And this industry is so brutally hard for anyone, man or woman, once they've been out of it for a while, to get back into it. And it's very unforgiving of part time employment or 9-to-5 options or all the good things you can normally get in office jobs.
There is no reason why it can't be the man who gives up the career to be a stay at home Dad. I'm in a similar situation to you Luke and to be honest I find the idea appealing (not giving it up completely, but being the one who takes the paternity leave and so on.) I had about 6 weeks off work recently due injury and I didn't miss it one bit. The fact is for us that we need two good incomes so we both fly and make it work.
"Because it's not true, it's complete and utter grade one loose-stool water"?
There are a few structural differences between male and female brains, but they all push in the direction of potentially tending towards being better pilots than worse ones, as the military discovered some years ago and have been exploiting ever since.
But if we want to continue the stereotype jokes we should be looking atthe remarks made by a slightly inebriated scouser SLF on an easyjet flight to a footie match when he was advised that the captain of his aeroplane was a woman:
"That's great - I don't care if they let a girl fly the plane 'cose I'm sure she'll be brilliant. But when we get there can we find a man to park it?"
PDR