Airbus Procedures and callouts
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Villas,uplinker,thanks for the lesson in nothing.Been on the A/C 20 yrs,as an instructor and CHK airmen.If your SOPs work that way for you,use them,the experience base in many of these airlines is low,therefore use the airbus training manual,other airlines have much deeper experience bases not requiring the mundane FMA call outs.It works either way!!
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Check Airman and Pakehaboy
The only point you both are harping on is pilots calling without checking and that is as wrong as can get. It is not a call you read it, Check airman you are new to the bus and yet you are assigning the manufacturer recommendations, the evidence of accidents and opinions of experienced pilots to dust bin just because you are unnecessarily uncomfortable with some thing that is routinely done by thousands of pilots across the globe. If pilot can call FMA mechanically without actually reading it then this pilot will never check it doing silently. In the first case there is chance of other guy noticing the error but when done silently the other guy is not even in the loop. And a neophyte saying airbus procedure goes against airbus philosophy I don't find anything more ridiculous than that. You are not immune to committing mistake made by other experienced pilots. Flight control check you are supposed to check full up aileron with spoilers but since spoilers are not called the pilots failed to notice that spoilers were not moving and that caused the incident in Luft Hansa where maintenance had cross connected the wires and captains side stick banked the aircraft to opposite side. The co-pilot landed the plane.
The only point you both are harping on is pilots calling without checking and that is as wrong as can get. It is not a call you read it, Check airman you are new to the bus and yet you are assigning the manufacturer recommendations, the evidence of accidents and opinions of experienced pilots to dust bin just because you are unnecessarily uncomfortable with some thing that is routinely done by thousands of pilots across the globe. If pilot can call FMA mechanically without actually reading it then this pilot will never check it doing silently. In the first case there is chance of other guy noticing the error but when done silently the other guy is not even in the loop. And a neophyte saying airbus procedure goes against airbus philosophy I don't find anything more ridiculous than that. You are not immune to committing mistake made by other experienced pilots. Flight control check you are supposed to check full up aileron with spoilers but since spoilers are not called the pilots failed to notice that spoilers were not moving and that caused the incident in Luft Hansa where maintenance had cross connected the wires and captains side stick banked the aircraft to opposite side. The co-pilot landed the plane.
I'm interested in this, because my company has flip flopped on calling out thr FMA. I do it whichever way the manual tells me to do it.
If anyone thinks there's anything unsafe about not calling out FMAs, don't travel on any of the hundreds of US registered Airbus planes, because cockpit callouts are the exception, not the norm.
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CHK Airmen,great point.Always amazes me how many Asian airlines are hiring Western Trained pilots etc,and yet the transition from minimum call outs per their company SOPs is an easy transition to the Airbus standard SOP,with some study and practice.It clearly is not a big issue but a mindset.
My thoughts on 23 years of Bus flying: Yes, it happens where you make an FMA call based on what you expect as apposed to what you actually did. Calling open descent when you didnt actually pull the knob far enough for example may give evidence that calling the FMA serves no purpose.
But more often than not the reverse happens where the FMA call is exactly what picks up the oversight. Forgetting to arm the approach then going to read the FMA and finding it aint correct saves me more than the first scenario.
Its not going to catch your errors every time but it does help.
I have just joined my 7th airline where FMA calls are SOP however often not done and the number of errors is significantly higher than previous carriers.
Another call my new carrier does differently is the rad alt alive. Previous SOP for years was 2500 "rad alt alive" but my new carrier is 2500 "checked". Throw in that checked with several other "checked" calls down the approach and its easy to overlook the fact that the ground is coming into play. In this day and age of CFIT awareness I am surprised that there is such little attention paid to the rad alt????
But more often than not the reverse happens where the FMA call is exactly what picks up the oversight. Forgetting to arm the approach then going to read the FMA and finding it aint correct saves me more than the first scenario.
Its not going to catch your errors every time but it does help.
I have just joined my 7th airline where FMA calls are SOP however often not done and the number of errors is significantly higher than previous carriers.
Another call my new carrier does differently is the rad alt alive. Previous SOP for years was 2500 "rad alt alive" but my new carrier is 2500 "checked". Throw in that checked with several other "checked" calls down the approach and its easy to overlook the fact that the ground is coming into play. In this day and age of CFIT awareness I am surprised that there is such little attention paid to the rad alt????
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If people in your company are in the habit of trusting that their FMA input is sufficient, then yes, I understand why the verbal call may make sense in that case.
On my first jet, you HAD to read the FMA- there was simply no way of getting around it. That's probably why I'm having such a hard time understanding why it's necessary to call it out. It's something that i just do reflexively. It feels a lot like having to call out "trim" every time I move the trim switch in a conventional airplane.
Never heard of an airline doing a call of "RA alive". Why not just enable the automatic 2500ft call?
On a tangent, did anyone here fly the A300/310? Did Airbus recommend FMA callouts on those airplanes as well?
On my first jet, you HAD to read the FMA- there was simply no way of getting around it. That's probably why I'm having such a hard time understanding why it's necessary to call it out. It's something that i just do reflexively. It feels a lot like having to call out "trim" every time I move the trim switch in a conventional airplane.
Never heard of an airline doing a call of "RA alive". Why not just enable the automatic 2500ft call?
On a tangent, did anyone here fly the A300/310? Did Airbus recommend FMA callouts on those airplanes as well?
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On A310 yes. Automatic Radio altimeter call is also acknowledged like any other call. Why there are any calls at all? Why not every one does his job quietly? Because sometimes somebody doesn't and if the other guy also doesn't then something happens.
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Something that most airbuses don't have, unlike most? other airliners we are comparing fma's with, are moving control columns or thrust levers.
If you turn the heading knob in a Boeing to the left, the control column will probably turn to the left. If not, you would have another look at the FMA. In The fbw airbuses, the only way to know if the airplane is going to to as you intended, is to read the FMA.
it might be that important that airbus decided that it actually should be read out loud in order to minimize the risk of anything being left out.
Check airman: yes, the FMA has to be read. But how do I know that my cadet in the right seat have read it unless I hear it. Let alone understand it?
If you turn the heading knob in a Boeing to the left, the control column will probably turn to the left. If not, you would have another look at the FMA. In The fbw airbuses, the only way to know if the airplane is going to to as you intended, is to read the FMA.
it might be that important that airbus decided that it actually should be read out loud in order to minimize the risk of anything being left out.
Check airman: yes, the FMA has to be read. But how do I know that my cadet in the right seat have read it unless I hear it. Let alone understand it?
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vilas quote...
"On A310 yes. Automatic Radio altimeter call is also acknowledged like any other call. Why there are any calls at all? Why not every one does his job quietly? Because sometimes somebody doesn't and if the other guy also doesn't then something happens."
You've lost the plot and direction mate!!!No one at any time is saying call outs and procedure are not required.Depending on the phase of flight we must and have sufficient callous required to keep our attention to the job at hand,ridiculous not to.I certainly don't want to get into a pissing match as to what are the best and worst SOP call outs just because AIRBUS has said so,they wrote their own ops specs to satisfy what "they" regard as the "Standard".
So be it, their procedures (Airbus) are the baseline for an operator to start with,you either use it to the nth degree or you butcher it to suit ones operation.As I've said I've seen it (as many here have )done many ways,some have refined it,some have spit the dummy,and no doubt we have witnessed its failings and excellent sides.
I have witnessed two very new pilots in the same cockpit,and if it wasn't for all the call outs required they would have very quickly met their makers or a disciplinary board.Whereas I have checked two very experienced pilots in the same situation,who,because of their experience,scan,airplane knowledge ,use the minimum of call outs and do a fabulous job.One has to cater Airbuses SOPs to ones operation,and what fits,it is not a system of one fits all.
Vilas,in defence of your point,I would agree that the current situation of pending and actual pilot shortages,perceived or otherwise,the lack of rudder,stick skills,abnitio programmes and the lack of real flight time,the use of Aisbus SOPs for Airbus Aircraft is the best starting point for all.I have seen it,witnessed and flown it,it works
"On A310 yes. Automatic Radio altimeter call is also acknowledged like any other call. Why there are any calls at all? Why not every one does his job quietly? Because sometimes somebody doesn't and if the other guy also doesn't then something happens."
You've lost the plot and direction mate!!!No one at any time is saying call outs and procedure are not required.Depending on the phase of flight we must and have sufficient callous required to keep our attention to the job at hand,ridiculous not to.I certainly don't want to get into a pissing match as to what are the best and worst SOP call outs just because AIRBUS has said so,they wrote their own ops specs to satisfy what "they" regard as the "Standard".
So be it, their procedures (Airbus) are the baseline for an operator to start with,you either use it to the nth degree or you butcher it to suit ones operation.As I've said I've seen it (as many here have )done many ways,some have refined it,some have spit the dummy,and no doubt we have witnessed its failings and excellent sides.
I have witnessed two very new pilots in the same cockpit,and if it wasn't for all the call outs required they would have very quickly met their makers or a disciplinary board.Whereas I have checked two very experienced pilots in the same situation,who,because of their experience,scan,airplane knowledge ,use the minimum of call outs and do a fabulous job.One has to cater Airbuses SOPs to ones operation,and what fits,it is not a system of one fits all.
Vilas,in defence of your point,I would agree that the current situation of pending and actual pilot shortages,perceived or otherwise,the lack of rudder,stick skills,abnitio programmes and the lack of real flight time,the use of Aisbus SOPs for Airbus Aircraft is the best starting point for all.I have seen it,witnessed and flown it,it works
"Never heard of an airline doing a call of "RA alive". Why not just enable the automatic 2500ft call?"
The "Rad Alt Alive" call by the PNF is in response to the auto callout of "twenty five hundred". Standard AI SOP from FCOM.
The "Rad Alt Alive" call by the PNF is in response to the auto callout of "twenty five hundred". Standard AI SOP from FCOM.
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CA is highly allergic to anything that is standard and especially from Airbus. Any call auto or by a crew member is to be acknowledged because it also shows that you are still part of the team and not passed out. I am surprised he still hasn't quoted the line "SOPs are for guidance of the wise and compliance by idiots" famous, though last words in many accidents.
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Quite the contrary, actually. I do the callouts prescribed by my SOP. We're not required to make any RA callouts. The company has determined that the auto callout suffices.
This discussion about the differences in SOP is likely a cultural issue. For example, we tend to approach things like briefings, automation and FO limitations differently. I assume the FMA thing is just another difference. We operate the same airplanes differently, and with consistently safe results- which is what matters in the end.
This discussion about the differences in SOP is likely a cultural issue. For example, we tend to approach things like briefings, automation and FO limitations differently. I assume the FMA thing is just another difference. We operate the same airplanes differently, and with consistently safe results- which is what matters in the end.
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As part of your compensation package,I shall take hammer to left toe as a reminder not to do that again,and brews are on me if our paths ever cross....my apologies ...
Accepted and my post deleted.
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Hello guys!
I've question by SOP->STANDARD CALLOUTS (PRO-NOR-SOP-90 P 1/)
->ACTIONS COMMANDED BY PF.
Is it when PF give the command to PM for change a guidance mode or actions are performed by self?
For ex.:
I'm PF, AP - ON. To change FL340 to FL320 I should announce: FL320 SET, FL320 PULL, after that FMA THR IDLE-OP DES or I should read and announce only FMA FL320 BLUE, THR IDLE-OP DES
I've question by SOP->STANDARD CALLOUTS (PRO-NOR-SOP-90 P 1/)
->ACTIONS COMMANDED BY PF.
Is it when PF give the command to PM for change a guidance mode or actions are performed by self?
For ex.:
I'm PF, AP - ON. To change FL340 to FL320 I should announce: FL320 SET, FL320 PULL, after that FMA THR IDLE-OP DES or I should read and announce only FMA FL320 BLUE, THR IDLE-OP DES
If AP is on then our SOP allows PF to set FL320 and pull/push on FCU, then announce "thrust idle, (open) descent, alt blue FL320", PM response "checked, FL320"
If AP is off then PF order PM to set FCU "ALT FL320 pull/push", then PF announce the FMA mode as per above
If AP is off then PF order PM to set FCU "ALT FL320 pull/push", then PF announce the FMA mode as per above
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I mean FCOM Airbus
Are actions announced on FCU by PF: FL320 SET, PULL, SPEED PULL, SELECT, etc.?
Or will be correct only announce FMA on PFD?
Are actions announced on FCU by PF: FL320 SET, PULL, SPEED PULL, SELECT, etc.?
Or will be correct only announce FMA on PFD?
Last edited by StrIA; 16th Oct 2016 at 20:47.
