How to execute this approach?
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How to execute this approach?
Hi
I just started my ir training in Denmark. I'm studying the plates for different airports at the moment and found a strange procedure for some Danish airports.
http://selvbetjening.trafikstyrelsen...ME_09_R_en.pdf
This is a link to Karup rw 09 ils from Danish aip.
My question is, how do you perform this as a full procedure? If you arrive within +- 30 degrees of the base turn it's nothing strange. But what if you don't?
The holding is in the opposite direction, are you allowed to execute the approach directly from the holding? If it would be published as a racetrack it would be more obvious. I haven't seen this type of approaches with holdings in "wrong direction before." Anyone able to help me with this?
Thanks!
I just started my ir training in Denmark. I'm studying the plates for different airports at the moment and found a strange procedure for some Danish airports.
http://selvbetjening.trafikstyrelsen...ME_09_R_en.pdf
This is a link to Karup rw 09 ils from Danish aip.
My question is, how do you perform this as a full procedure? If you arrive within +- 30 degrees of the base turn it's nothing strange. But what if you don't?
The holding is in the opposite direction, are you allowed to execute the approach directly from the holding? If it would be published as a racetrack it would be more obvious. I haven't seen this type of approaches with holdings in "wrong direction before." Anyone able to help me with this?
Thanks!
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The inbound course of the hold at KP is the same track as the ILS. If you are holding at KA, you just fly 268 from KA and when you reach KP, start the procedure turn. Track 288 and at 8.3d KAP, turn left to intercept the ILS.
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Well, if for example you are at qdm 200 to KP, then just join the hold via a direct entry, and when turning inbound, intercept localiser KAP to intercept the ils .
Any approach procedure is designed to safely intercept your final approach course within the protected area. This approach procedure is very badly designed though. Happens often unfortunately.
Any approach procedure is designed to safely intercept your final approach course within the protected area. This approach procedure is very badly designed though. Happens often unfortunately.
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I have flown Approaches in almost every continent. Its a typical approach like most badly designed approaches.
Its an ILS/DME approach, so the holding pattern over the FAF/ L KP published is basically for stacking airplanes in a hold and shoot them in 1 by 1. The Holding over KA is designed for missed approach procedure.
Your question is that the holding over KA is in the wrong direction. Yes you are right, but not 100%. Its designed like that so it provides an easy transition back to the published holding over the L KP beacon.
Now lets say you come from the north to L KP, you would do either a Direct (from NW) or a parallel entry (from NE) if you are told to hold over L KP. If you flew the approach and went missed approach then you follow the procedure and hold over KA and to do that, 'recommended procedure' is a teardrop or parallel entry. Now, your inbound course will be to fly to the KA beacon which positions you to fly a back course of the LOC or inbound bearing of L KP. You would then fly the 'course reversal: A/B or C/D segment (category dependent) if you are cleared for the approach.
Then, you do it all over again.
So you see. its simple.
Its an ILS/DME approach, so the holding pattern over the FAF/ L KP published is basically for stacking airplanes in a hold and shoot them in 1 by 1. The Holding over KA is designed for missed approach procedure.
Your question is that the holding over KA is in the wrong direction. Yes you are right, but not 100%. Its designed like that so it provides an easy transition back to the published holding over the L KP beacon.
Now lets say you come from the north to L KP, you would do either a Direct (from NW) or a parallel entry (from NE) if you are told to hold over L KP. If you flew the approach and went missed approach then you follow the procedure and hold over KA and to do that, 'recommended procedure' is a teardrop or parallel entry. Now, your inbound course will be to fly to the KA beacon which positions you to fly a back course of the LOC or inbound bearing of L KP. You would then fly the 'course reversal: A/B or C/D segment (category dependent) if you are cleared for the approach.
Then, you do it all over again.
So you see. its simple.
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Perser DK. To answer your question, yes you can (and should) join the ils directly from the KP Hold.
The procedure turn only applies if you are cleared for the approach from KA.
If however you are cleared to join holding at KP and then subsequently cleared for the approach after entering the hold, then you should forget about the procedure turn
The procedure turn only applies if you are cleared for the approach from KA.
If however you are cleared to join holding at KP and then subsequently cleared for the approach after entering the hold, then you should forget about the procedure turn
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Thanks for the responses.
As I understand the MHA in the KP HP is 2200, if I'm executing the approach from the holding does that mean I have to be at 2200 when intercepting the GP? Or when can I descend to 2000?
As I understand the MHA in the KP HP is 2200, if I'm executing the approach from the holding does that mean I have to be at 2200 when intercepting the GP? Or when can I descend to 2000?
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I don't think this is clear at all. The only depicted way of doing the initial approach is by a base turn from KP or straight-in via REVBO. As depicted, the hold over KP is just a hold, not a racetrack procedure. If I recall correctly, you can choose any kind of course reversal if a procedure turn is depicted, but a base turn has to be flown as a base turn.
If you are using the KP hold as a racetrack, you are essentially constructing your own procedure.
There are two questions in my mind: First, you should intercept the ILS GP at 2000', but the MHA of the KP hold is 2200'. When do you start your descent? If you are doing the base turn, it is easy -- you start the descent when passing KP, as depicted. This is not an academic question as the protected area of the hold is much larger than the protected area of the base turn. Also note that the relevant MSA is also 2200'.
Secondly, are you sure that you will intercept the localiser before the FAP? Given the 2 minute leg for category A/B aircraft, you most likely will but it is not obvious.
I agree that the hold can probably be used safely as a racetrack, but it takes some thinking to determine and that is not something I would like to figure out in the air.
If I was arriving from the north, I would not enter the hold at KP at all, but instead position the aircraft (by whatever means) in the entry sector for the base turn (KP QDM 258°-318° if flying a category A or B aircraft).
If you are using the KP hold as a racetrack, you are essentially constructing your own procedure.
There are two questions in my mind: First, you should intercept the ILS GP at 2000', but the MHA of the KP hold is 2200'. When do you start your descent? If you are doing the base turn, it is easy -- you start the descent when passing KP, as depicted. This is not an academic question as the protected area of the hold is much larger than the protected area of the base turn. Also note that the relevant MSA is also 2200'.
Secondly, are you sure that you will intercept the localiser before the FAP? Given the 2 minute leg for category A/B aircraft, you most likely will but it is not obvious.
I agree that the hold can probably be used safely as a racetrack, but it takes some thinking to determine and that is not something I would like to figure out in the air.
If I was arriving from the north, I would not enter the hold at KP at all, but instead position the aircraft (by whatever means) in the entry sector for the base turn (KP QDM 258°-318° if flying a category A or B aircraft).
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Another thing -- if the hold was actually intended to be used as a racetrack procedure, there would be no need for the base turns. An offset entry into the racetrack would serve the same purpose!
This is published by the Danish Transport Authority which is presumably their AIP.
It would be interesting to see how this approach is portrayed by Jeppesen.
The fact that there are timings for A/B and C/D adjacent to the KP racetrack implies that this is an alternative procedure for the ILS from the KP hold.
I agree though that it is a little unclear.
It would be interesting to see how this approach is portrayed by Jeppesen.
The fact that there are timings for A/B and C/D adjacent to the KP racetrack implies that this is an alternative procedure for the ILS from the KP hold.
I agree though that it is a little unclear.
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Poorly designed approaches can be found everywhere.
Here's one from ENDU which has some of the same issues. Here the holding is below MSA which adds to the excitement of constructing your own entry...
https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/curre...NDU_5-6_en.pdf
Here's one from ENDU which has some of the same issues. Here the holding is below MSA which adds to the excitement of constructing your own entry...
https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/curre...NDU_5-6_en.pdf
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Before racetrack procedures were common, most procedures looked like this. It is an inherent problem with a base turn that you have a narrow entry sector. You just have to figure out a way to get there somehow.
If you're going to shoot this approach into Bardufoss from the hold, you'll need to do some maneuvering on the west side of BDF VOR. The MSA west of BDF is equal to or lower than both the MHA and the initial approach altitude so obstacle clearance won't be a problem.
If you're going to shoot this approach into Bardufoss from the hold, you'll need to do some maneuvering on the west side of BDF VOR. The MSA west of BDF is equal to or lower than both the MHA and the initial approach altitude so obstacle clearance won't be a problem.
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fireflybob:
I would say "suggests" rather than "implies". 
The fact that there are timings for A/B and C/D adjacent to the KP racetrack implies that this is an alternative procedure for the ILS from the KP hold.
