De-Ice / Anti-Ice TLB page to Ramp
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De-Ice / Anti-Ice TLB page to Ramp
Hi guys,
I have a question about the De-Ice / Anti-Ice paperwork.
I'd like to know which procedure does your airline apply to fill the relevant De-icing section of the Technical Logbook page in case of De-icing with doors closed and Engines running (during taxi). Usually we don't operate on airports with the De-Icing pads or positions along the taxi route.
Do you fill it before the doors closure and give the copy to the ramp agent (so the starting time is anticipated) or you complete the section with doors closed and the ramp agent fills his/her copy section on their own later?
Thanks
I have a question about the De-Ice / Anti-Ice paperwork.
I'd like to know which procedure does your airline apply to fill the relevant De-icing section of the Technical Logbook page in case of De-icing with doors closed and Engines running (during taxi). Usually we don't operate on airports with the De-Icing pads or positions along the taxi route.
Do you fill it before the doors closure and give the copy to the ramp agent (so the starting time is anticipated) or you complete the section with doors closed and the ramp agent fills his/her copy section on their own later?
Thanks
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Deicing documentation is done in our journey log, not the TLB. The journey log is done electronically via the ACARS menu and a printout of it is kept both in the flight documentation envelope and the TLB after the flight is completed. It is of course also send via ACARS to the company.
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nope flt deck fill out the start stop times after we have done the rest.
Do they fill it before closing the doors?
Depends a bit on the airfields own procedures.
Deicing is usually ordered orally from the ramp agent. At some fields, the deicing crew then brings a form on which one has to indicate the required mixture and areas to be treated, at most fields, this is done via headset or radio (usually on a dedicated deicing frequency) on the deicing pad.
After deicing is completed, the deicing coordinator tells us the deicing code via headset or radio. This contains at least the areas that were treated, the mixture(s) used for this, the starting time of the last step and a confirmation that a post-deicing check (if required, hands-on) has been confirmed.
The deicing staff then notes this information in their paperwork and we note the same in our aircraft log and on the operational flight plan. So there is no need to shut down the engines, open the doors and exchange any papers.
Deicing is usually ordered orally from the ramp agent. At some fields, the deicing crew then brings a form on which one has to indicate the required mixture and areas to be treated, at most fields, this is done via headset or radio (usually on a dedicated deicing frequency) on the deicing pad.
After deicing is completed, the deicing coordinator tells us the deicing code via headset or radio. This contains at least the areas that were treated, the mixture(s) used for this, the starting time of the last step and a confirmation that a post-deicing check (if required, hands-on) has been confirmed.
The deicing staff then notes this information in their paperwork and we note the same in our aircraft log and on the operational flight plan. So there is no need to shut down the engines, open the doors and exchange any papers.
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Maybe I've not been clear, sorry.
As usual, one copy of the Technical Logbook should be handed to the ramp agent. If I fill the De-icing section of the TLB during taxi and de-icing with engines running, I should have handed the TLB copy to the ramp agent before filling that part.
So I have my copy filled but the agent's one not. Are they allowed to fill their copy of our TLB?
Did you get it now?
As usual, one copy of the Technical Logbook should be handed to the ramp agent. If I fill the De-icing section of the TLB during taxi and de-icing with engines running, I should have handed the TLB copy to the ramp agent before filling that part.
So I have my copy filled but the agent's one not. Are they allowed to fill their copy of our TLB?
Did you get it now?
At least here, the ramp agent is not allowed to alter a document signed by the Captain on his own.
On occasion, only the fact that deicing is needed is known before the documents are handed over to the ramp agent and details are decided on later. Consider a not untypical winter weather with snow showers drifting in and out of the airfield - it may well happen that the Captain signs up for deicing out of precaution, but during taxi it is obvious that one will be airborne well before the next shower hits. So it is well possible that depending on airframe contamination either no deicing is needed at all or only washing off the present contamination with some diluted type I will do and no second type II treatment is required. Or if the Captain has underestimated the time it would take to get to the runway and an unexpected snow shower catches him during taxi, he will of course require deicing by calling ATC. Both of these situations are no longer involving any ramp agent, therefore anything written on the documents handed over to him is obsolete. It may well be that he is already working another flight when the final call is made.
Documentation requirements are met by noting the actually performed deicing procedure in the aircraft log on the flight crew side and by keeping a separate record on them on the deicing crew side. The ramp agent is usually not directly involved in either.
On occasion, only the fact that deicing is needed is known before the documents are handed over to the ramp agent and details are decided on later. Consider a not untypical winter weather with snow showers drifting in and out of the airfield - it may well happen that the Captain signs up for deicing out of precaution, but during taxi it is obvious that one will be airborne well before the next shower hits. So it is well possible that depending on airframe contamination either no deicing is needed at all or only washing off the present contamination with some diluted type I will do and no second type II treatment is required. Or if the Captain has underestimated the time it would take to get to the runway and an unexpected snow shower catches him during taxi, he will of course require deicing by calling ATC. Both of these situations are no longer involving any ramp agent, therefore anything written on the documents handed over to him is obsolete. It may well be that he is already working another flight when the final call is made.
Documentation requirements are met by noting the actually performed deicing procedure in the aircraft log on the flight crew side and by keeping a separate record on them on the deicing crew side. The ramp agent is usually not directly involved in either.
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So...we have our copy with De-icing noted, but the copy handed to the ramp will remain blank in that section, right?
Of course, they have their documentation filled (De-icing request form, or similar).
Of course, they have their documentation filled (De-icing request form, or similar).
Indeed, this is pretty much standard in our operation.
Additionally, there is no way the ramp agent would know the exact starting time of the final step, as the aircraft is already out of his reach by the time it reaches the deicing pad.
Additionally, there is no way the ramp agent would know the exact starting time of the final step, as the aircraft is already out of his reach by the time it reaches the deicing pad.
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All in all we are talking about company procedures here. So every company will do them quite differently. As explained above we do not even note deicing in our TLB at all. Nor did we hand out copies of the last TLB page out to ramp agents for quite a few years, we just recently restarted it after a five or six year break. Since TLB entries enroute or away from base are also done via ACARS, everything is electronically documented anyway, no need for paper really.
Additionally on most airports we have on our route network there is no direct paper trail at all, as deicing requests are coordinated via VHF and not with a form.
Additionally on most airports we have on our route network there is no direct paper trail at all, as deicing requests are coordinated via VHF and not with a form.
