RTO due FO fail to call speed/incapacitation

[ricfly744]

Dear all,

I am a B777 Capt, and will have a RTO scenario in my upcoming SIM were the FO will not call 80kt and in consequence, based on the PILOT INCAPACITATION perspective, I will STOP.

My points and questions:

In my SOP, any fail to respond a CALLOUT bellow 1000ft AGL, is immediately considered incapacitation, and a Go Around mandatory. Nothing is specific on TO, however being bellow 1000', we may apply the same principal.

So, the FO does not call 80Kt, and I immediately reject ….. that simple! OK for the SIM, examiner is happy and we save time and go on to the next exercise.

But I am not happy as I believe this is not so simplistic and I would like to receive your feedback about it. I just wish to explore this a bit more and learn with it.

In my 25y airline time, I have a few times forgot to call 80Kt as PM, and in other occasions the FO also missed the call and no one rejected in real flights because of this.
I also read somewhere, I cannot find where now, that it is acceptable to call 90Kt when the 80 call is not made, or the PF may make the call when the PM does not, and no one stops in such cases, considering that the other pilot is incapacitated. Another point is that I never read anywhere in all RTO related material, FCTM, QRH, that pilot incapacitation is added to reasons to reject above 80kt (high speed RTO in the 777) as are: ENG FAIL, FIRE, PREDICTED WS or A/C Unable to fly. Everybody states in the preflight emergency briefing that will ONLY STOP FOR: the reasons above, never heard for incapacitation.

I will end up performing the "theatre" which is expected in the SIM and make the examiner happy by not starting a debate on the briefing, however it is sad that we must act this way, and not learn more and discuss in a positive way some SOP, SIM or real flight issues. Best not to in most cases with most people.

But I can do it here, with you, and would appreciate any material on the matter or personal experience and opinion.

[BOAC]

ric - my view is that with the speeds involved there is 'time' at 81kts to glance/shout/ask/grunt across the cockpit without imperilling the take-off/abort - and more often than not there are 'indicators of wellness' during the run up to 80kts, so the odds of a 'sudden death' at exactly 80kts must be remote? It will take a few seconds only and still leave ample time to stop on a 777 etc.

[Skyjob]

Personally I would call the passing speed and see if there is a response, it may genuinely have been forgotten for a number of many reasons, ATC transmissions regarding other a/c, a near bird strike, etc...

• If PNF responds, he tends to be back in the loop for the duration of remainder of the takeoff, continue as this is the safest option;
• If PNF does not respond, he is deemed incapacitated, actions depend on:
  • speed remaining to V1 (a very low V1 on a contaminated runway may require a continued departure as safer);
  • ambient conditions (such as LVO);
  • runway remaining;
  • remember: you are more familiar with a takeoff then a single pilot RTO in a multicrew aircraft, so this may be safer if not entirely ensured of a safe outcome of the RTO maneuver

[Captaintcas]

So your airline wants you to go-around if your collegue has just died or is unconscious?!

You are probably stable ( under 1000'), runway ahead, mere minutes from medical care, instead you would go around single pilot, get vectored, prepare another approach, talk to the cc etc...losing precious minutes and then to top it off having to land anyhow single pilot

In case of missed call at 80 kts, call 90 kts. If no answer, reject.
SOP in all airlines i know.

[safelife]

I once got no answer from a captain when I called 80, even not after calling it once again, but got a "sorry, I'm here" after I touched his hand on the thrust levers in preparation to abort the takeoff.
Even then I felt it the right decision to continue, guess the thing we really want to catch is a subtile incapacitation where the other guy just freezes...

[Dash8driver1312]

On our outfit, you give the guy a ten-knot reminder, no response to the second challenge, then abort. He might have been swallowing a chunk of hot dog after all!

[Burnie5204]

Even then I felt it the right decision to continue, guess the thing we really want to catch is a subtile incapacitation where the other guy just freezes...

Indeed, there are quite a few sufferers of epilepsy who do not know that they have epilepsy because for them it does not manifest in the familiar shaking on the floor type Grand Mal seizure but instead they only suffer from "Absence Seizures" where they, effectively, zone out for a period of time, oblivious to the world around them and afterwards are often unaware that it had even happened, much like microsleep.

And, of course, epilepsy can develop in a previously healthy person at any time.

[parabellum]

There is no doubt that you are safer on the ground than in the air and an abort at 80 or 90 knots is no drama in terms of speed, runway etc. At what speed on the B777 do you have full rudder authority? maybe part of the exercise is handling a low speed abort? Certainly part of the Cat3 refresher.

[Mach E Avelli]

Everyone has forgotten the 80 knot call at least once in their career. Most operators would not regard that as a sin, provided either pilot then called at 90 knots and got a response from the other side of the cockpit. Even as someone suggests, a grunt of acknowledgement. At 90 knots in most types, you are already in the "GO" zone for all but major malfunctions or hazards, so that is no time to be playing physician and analysing whether your co-pilot is dead, alive, just having a nap or is in fact distracted by something else going on.

If missing the 80 knot call was a habit, the time to debrief the recalcitrant would be over a few beers at the end of the flight. But most professionals understand why we call 80 knots, so I doubt it is a very common deliberate mistake. Neither is it statistically probable that a pilot will croak between setting thrust and 80 knots.

If your SOP is so truly anal that an automatic RTO or go-around is expected for one missed call, you need to have a deep and meaningful pre-test discussion with your examiner to determine whether common-sense can rule, or whether "one strike and you are out" applies.

If the examiner is insistent that you must assume pilot incapacitation, with this mantra in your head, you now go back to the line and reject a take-off for a missed 80 knot call. Crew invited for tea and bickies with the Chief Pilot next morning.....

I do sometimes wonder at why we train improbable or rare events that would end in a successful outcome regardless of whether option A or option B was taken, yet insist that A is the only correct answer.

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

I'm more concerned by the fact that you seem to know exactly what fault you are going to get, at what phase of the flight and what you are expected to do!
What kind of training scenario is that?

[Khozai737]

Im also wondering why pilot incapaciation at 80kts isn't included in the briefing for items you reject for after 80 before V1?

[Denti]

It is deemed safer to take it into the air then abort an take off where a crew member who has to do critical tasks is incapacitated. After all the aircraft is most probably still working fine and modern aircraft can be flown quite comfortably single hand once you get your head around the fact that one of the two up front just croaked.

[de facto]

Denti It is deemed safer to take it into the air then abort an take off where a crew member who has to do critical tasks is incapacitated. After all the aircraft is most probably still working fine and modern aircraft can be flown quite comfortably single hand once you get your head around the fact that one of the two up front just croaked.

True,a reject after a second call out at 'low speeds' is expected.
A reject close to v1 on a limited runway is a risk assessment the pilot need to be ready for.I would continue in that case..

The only hope then is that there is a medic onboard...

[Piltdown Man]

There is no doubt that you are safer on the ground than in the air and an abort at 80 or 90 knots is no drama in terms of speed, runway etc.

Not necessarily. A big aircraft accelerating and approaching 90 knots have a lot of energy to get rid of. Rejecting a take-off is also a manoeuvre generally only practiced in the sim every very months where as a take-off is one that is performed every flight - a process that we perform virtually every day. Also, lightweight twins can have such rapid acceleration that you could be travelling well in excess of 100 kts before a stop is initiated. The time when a reject is a probably a good idea is when you are PNF and the PF incapacitated - but even then, a stop may not always be best. Highly prescriptive company (rather than manufacturer) SOPs that say when 'X occurs, take Y action' (in every case) are not based on 'good science' but often a 'good idea' in a training meeting.

I fly approximately 500 flights per year. I'll suggest that the '80 knots' call is called late, say five-ten times every year? I'm satisfied that continuing in each occasion was the right thing to do. The reason for the omission in most of the cases was distraction. And that's because we have fully functioning, thinking, human pilots. We should also consider the detrimental effect that such a policy will have on all other callouts. If our 'hair triggers' are set with no flexibility, a tendency will creep in to always caling early - thus removing the value of every call. I remember a former colleague who you could goad into calling "One to go" nearly three hundred feet before 'one to go.'

I'll stay with the imperfect way I handle these cases because I believe this is the safest thing to do.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by PM

I remember a former colleague who you could goad into calling "One to go" nearly three hundred feet before 'one to go.'

- ah yes, the 'one-to-go' competitions. Remember them well. Did you ever experience the "one-to-go to one-to-go" line?

[de facto]

Rejecting a take-off is also a manoeuvre generally only practiced in the sim every very months where as a take-off is one that is performed every flight - a process that we perform virtually every day.

Scary thought,aint it?

[flarepilot]

simple, use your best Judgement.


about 30 years ago I was getting a type rating in certain turboprop. had lots of sim training but also was getting some actual time in the plane.

I had a (what I consider) a goofball for an instructor.

He asked me to do a takeoff...(it was at night) and at 80 knots he reached up and pressed to test the annuciator panel, illuminating ALL the annuciators (warnings, tell tales, wwhatever you call them in your world).


I continued the takeoff, climbed to a safe altitude and he said go back and land as soon as you can

so I did.


he said: you should have rejected the takeoff.

I said: why?

he said: you reject for any warning before V1

I said: not if it is obviously caused by a moron pressing the press to test.

I got my type rating just fine...and complained to high heaven about this goof...he was soon fired for this and other odd things in his world of training.


USE YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT

is the copilot not making the 80 knot call because he is slumped over and dying...or is he eating a hamburger and has his mouth full of food


next time tell him not to eat during takeoffs, or get him help.