STAR Clearance limits
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STAR Clearance limits
Ok, I am not entirely sure that I am posting in the correct forum here, but I just wanted to post a question to all you pilots out there. I am an Air traffic controller, working the London TMA, and just recently I have experienced or heard many of my colleagues mentioning aircraft inbound to LHR during busy periods of the day, are missing the hold they are inbound to, and then saying to the controller involved that they were not instructed to hold. As you can all imagine, the London TMA is a very busy small bit of airspace, and OK, yes, the Air traffic controller should really be telling you to expect a hold, but on the rare occasion it may get forgotten, we rely on the fact that the clearance limits in your STAR charts is the hold you are inbound to. Why is it then that there are so many pilots just recently that seem to be unaware of this fact? It can be a safety critical thing for us. Do you expect to be told every time there is a hold that you should hold, or else otherwise you will just continue to make your own approach? I just ask out of curiosity. Look forward to your responses!
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Just follow the magenta line, in'it?
The FMC is programmed all the way to the runway.
The IAF needs to be included in the brief as the clearance limit and buttons pressed at that time.
It clearly seems to be missed due to lack of attention from the Pilots.
The FMC is programmed all the way to the runway.
The IAF needs to be included in the brief as the clearance limit and buttons pressed at that time.
It clearly seems to be missed due to lack of attention from the Pilots.
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They must be pretty gash operators to come out with that tripe. I fly in to the London TMA and would always slow and enter the hold at the clearance limit point if we hadn't been told differently. I don't think any colleagues would plan to do otherwise either! Thought we were all a bit more pro than that!
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To be honest, there has been a trend on the airlines that have been noticeably doing this on quite a consistent basis recently. I just did not wish to discriminate on a public forum, I just wondered if there was something we were missing, as it really can be a big safety issue at times. Just another question then to put to you guys, there also appears to be (across every airline) a bit of laxness in reporting cleared FL on first contact with a new frequency. Again, when we are busy, there is nothing more frustrating than having to ask the pilot to report his cleared level. For us, this is a mandatory requirement, we have to have the cleared FL confirmed in order for us to take positive control of the aircraft. Is this a result of the fact that very very rarely nowadays, there is any sort of familiarisation between pilots and ATCO's?
Mistrust in Management
I work for a West African airline and I can assure you that what you understand and what some of the Pilots understand is a world apart. Look at the callsign (or the transponder code given - which in our case is always 77??) The clue is in the transponder code.
If in doubt make it clear to the aircraft that they will take up the hold at BIG (or whatever). Do not expect the aircraft to auomatiacally take up the hold - despite no onward clearance. The magenta line flows from Biggin onwards and that is what, in some cases, you should expect the aircraft to do.
If in doubt make it clear to the aircraft that they will take up the hold at BIG (or whatever). Do not expect the aircraft to auomatiacally take up the hold - despite no onward clearance. The magenta line flows from Biggin onwards and that is what, in some cases, you should expect the aircraft to do.
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Thanks for the response. Just one point to note, this should be irrespective of countries and different airlines. It is based on rules and what is mentioned in the STAR charts for the airfield you are inbound to. It clearly states on the STAR charts that you cannot go beyond the clearance limit point (i.e the holding fix) unless otherwise instructed by ATC, Clearance limit point being defined as 'That to which an aircraft is granted an ATC clearance, which may be specified by naming a reporting point, an aerodrome or a boundary of controlled or advisory airspace'. Is it then do you think that maybe some pilots just don't read the small print? The rules are there for a reason.... namely, to keep you, the aircraft safe. I am not certain I understand how us, the ATCO's, and the pilots can understand such different things by this?
Mistrust in Management
southoftheborder
Please read my post again.
Regardless of the ideals and 'smallprint' some Pilots just don't get it. They have been brought up in in a totally different environment, trained within a very narrow footprint and have a totally different culture.
The airlines from this area have been approved to operate into Western Europe.
Now you have to help them to operate within the rules - that means making allowances for the things I've mentioned above. Eventually they will get it - but only with help from you.
Sorry to spell it out like this - they are nice people but are just so unused to a 'rule' based system.
You ought to spend a week with Lagos ATC on 127.3 just to see how awful things are.
Regardless of the ideals and 'smallprint' some Pilots just don't get it. They have been brought up in in a totally different environment, trained within a very narrow footprint and have a totally different culture.
The airlines from this area have been approved to operate into Western Europe.
Now you have to help them to operate within the rules - that means making allowances for the things I've mentioned above. Eventually they will get it - but only with help from you.
Sorry to spell it out like this - they are nice people but are just so unused to a 'rule' based system.
You ought to spend a week with Lagos ATC on 127.3 just to see how awful things are.
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southoftheborder
No disrespect intended, but I believe you should be ready to anticipate problems from Airlines from certain parts of the world.
Everybody should know the 'rules', but the fact is that not everybody does. Much in the same way that if I questioned you about some of your 'rules' you would not know the answer to everything.
You have seen and observed some airlines not follwing the rules so I hope that the next day you would treat them with a little caution.
If you see an airline continuously breaking the 'rules' then a report to the authorities is an appropriate course of action.
Everybody should know the 'rules', but the fact is that not everybody does. Much in the same way that if I questioned you about some of your 'rules' you would not know the answer to everything.
You have seen and observed some airlines not follwing the rules so I hope that the next day you would treat them with a little caution.
If you see an airline continuously breaking the 'rules' then a report to the authorities is an appropriate course of action.
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exeng:
I can only speak about the U.S. in regards to foreign carriers breaking rules. The FAA has no authority in such matters, other than they can refer the incident to the State Department for a protest to the nation of the offending carrier.
Lots of luck.
If you see an airline continuously breaking the 'rules' then a report to the authorities is an appropriate course of action.
Lots of luck.
In Asia, holding is rare (I did my first in about a year last night) and it probably wouldn't occur to a Chinese pilot to enter a hold if no clearance is given past the IAF - text in the charts notwithstanding. They would expect to be vectored. If you suspect the pilots are not used to the London TMA, I would spell it out to them.
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I agree with Dan.
I also work in Asia and know of many airfields where the controllers assume that you'll carry out the STAR (by guesswork) and the approach (again, either by guesswork, or if it's not the ILS, it's stated on the ATIS). Some places you don't get any clearance whatsoever. I've been cleared for takeoff without any SID, had a conflab in the flight deck, I thought we should go direct to our first flight planned waypoint, the capt wanted to maintain runway heading. Apparently neither was correct. We should have guessed which SID was in use (there was only one).
It's not "the right way" to do it. But it is the way it's done here. In fact, if you do it "the right way" it all goes tits up.
I agree with the original poster that people should do it "right". However (as has been pointed out by others) there are people from other countries who have learnt to include some educated guesswork into what they're doing. A solution for your problem would be to give more explicit clearances and not just assume that "certain operators" will read the fine print.
I also work in Asia and know of many airfields where the controllers assume that you'll carry out the STAR (by guesswork) and the approach (again, either by guesswork, or if it's not the ILS, it's stated on the ATIS). Some places you don't get any clearance whatsoever. I've been cleared for takeoff without any SID, had a conflab in the flight deck, I thought we should go direct to our first flight planned waypoint, the capt wanted to maintain runway heading. Apparently neither was correct. We should have guessed which SID was in use (there was only one).
It's not "the right way" to do it. But it is the way it's done here. In fact, if you do it "the right way" it all goes tits up.
I agree with the original poster that people should do it "right". However (as has been pointed out by others) there are people from other countries who have learnt to include some educated guesswork into what they're doing. A solution for your problem would be to give more explicit clearances and not just assume that "certain operators" will read the fine print.
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Never assume; because it makes an "ass out of u and me"
I have over 12,000 hours, 95 % of that in international operations. I have only once, experienced a "clearance limit" point, and that was in Amsterdam and the ATCO told me that was the CLP. Maybe for some airports, it is a common occurance, but for a GREAT number of folks, entering a hold automatically with no direction, is fairly rare.
I don't want to get into a bashing of certain countries procedures, but, IMO, the Brits seem to make things a little more complicated than I think they need to be.
I f certain airports have certain procedures that are out of the norm, they ought to make sure that the procedures are brought to light somehow. Some folks are so locked into their own little world, they think that is a perfectly normal scenario, when in actuality, its not so.
Not everyone flying into a busy environment is alert and awake, many have been on duty for 18 hours, keeping procedures simple will go a long way in making sure procedures are followed.
I don't think I have ever been into LHR, but i will be on my toes.
Let the fodder fly!!!!!!!!!
I have over 12,000 hours, 95 % of that in international operations. I have only once, experienced a "clearance limit" point, and that was in Amsterdam and the ATCO told me that was the CLP. Maybe for some airports, it is a common occurance, but for a GREAT number of folks, entering a hold automatically with no direction, is fairly rare.
I don't want to get into a bashing of certain countries procedures, but, IMO, the Brits seem to make things a little more complicated than I think they need to be.
I f certain airports have certain procedures that are out of the norm, they ought to make sure that the procedures are brought to light somehow. Some folks are so locked into their own little world, they think that is a perfectly normal scenario, when in actuality, its not so.
Not everyone flying into a busy environment is alert and awake, many have been on duty for 18 hours, keeping procedures simple will go a long way in making sure procedures are followed.
I don't think I have ever been into LHR, but i will be on my toes.
Let the fodder fly!!!!!!!!!
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CLP
It may be related to the issue mentioned a few posts ago about flying a star and sid based upon the ATIS information. In Russia and other former UUSR trained countries it is how they do it. Runway in use is announced on the ATIS, you find a STAR that goes from your last point on the flight plan to the runway and fly it. A clearance is hardly ever issued.
As for SID's its the same way. If you are cleared for take off you are cleared to the first point in your flight plan by the SID that takes you there. (It took having a very good Russian navigator on board to confirm this).
How about your SLP's coming into London? I was yelled at for slowing down to 250 at the SLP a while back. It all ended up with a lot of phone calls and the gentleman that designed the STAR telling the controller in question that the SLP was there to keep us from entering the adjacent sectors airspace.
As for giving the vacated FL on initial check in I try my best, but 20 years of flying and not doing it sometimes it is forgotten. With the enhanced mode S you can see it on your radar though, right? (A little sarcasm related to the expenses incurred to be allowed into the London area, putting equipment in that you don't use).
As for SID's its the same way. If you are cleared for take off you are cleared to the first point in your flight plan by the SID that takes you there. (It took having a very good Russian navigator on board to confirm this).
How about your SLP's coming into London? I was yelled at for slowing down to 250 at the SLP a while back. It all ended up with a lot of phone calls and the gentleman that designed the STAR telling the controller in question that the SLP was there to keep us from entering the adjacent sectors airspace.
As for giving the vacated FL on initial check in I try my best, but 20 years of flying and not doing it sometimes it is forgotten. With the enhanced mode S you can see it on your radar though, right? (A little sarcasm related to the expenses incurred to be allowed into the London area, putting equipment in that you don't use).
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OK, yes, the Air traffic controller should really be telling you to expect a hold, but on the rare occasion it may get forgotten, we rely on the fact that the clearance limits in your STAR charts is the hold you are inbound to. Why is it then that there are so many pilots just recently that seem to be unaware of this fact? It can be a safety critical thing for us.
If it is so safety critical, then the controller must not "forget," either. After all, he's the one sitting on the ground with his tea...
More seriously, though, I have not seen another STAR quite like those I just looked at for Gatwick (I seldom go to London; Stansted when I do). While the STAR chart is clear, it is a bit unusual for a STAR to end in a hold; and even more unusual to be cleared for a STAR and not be alerted of any hold well in advance.
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FMS/FMCG Discontinuities
S of the Border,
Perhaps misunderstood training is a part of this problem.
In my previous airline, we were encouraged to leave a discontinuity in the FMS/FMCG at the point where you would need a clearance to continue. The green/magenta line on the ND would stop, a pretty good reminder that something has to be done to move on.
Some trainers encourage students to 'connect the dots', or take out any discontinuities without exception to complete their FMS inputs. Personally, I need all the reminders I can get after a long, long day at the office.
Perhaps misunderstood training is a part of this problem.
In my previous airline, we were encouraged to leave a discontinuity in the FMS/FMCG at the point where you would need a clearance to continue. The green/magenta line on the ND would stop, a pretty good reminder that something has to be done to move on.
Some trainers encourage students to 'connect the dots', or take out any discontinuities without exception to complete their FMS inputs. Personally, I need all the reminders I can get after a long, long day at the office.
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You shouldn't be getting cleared for the "LAM3A 27L."
On check in with London (128.160/118.480) you'll be cleared for the LAM3A. Some controllers will say, "LAM3A, Heathrow landing 27L"(for information purposes only and not me I hasten to add) Is this where it may be confused?
On check in with London (128.160/118.480) you'll be cleared for the LAM3A. Some controllers will say, "LAM3A, Heathrow landing 27L"(for information purposes only and not me I hasten to add) Is this where it may be confused?
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Storm - Teacup. SOTB, keep a note of the miscreants, name and shame, then we'll offer some advice.
The Aerads are quite clear in the blurb, dunno about the Jeps.
You are only ever cleared to to take off, right?
"London, Speedbird xxx, FL380, direct Logan for the Lamb Bhuna 3a".
The Aerads are quite clear in the blurb, dunno about the Jeps.
You are only ever cleared to to take off, right?
"London, Speedbird xxx, FL380, direct Logan for the Lamb Bhuna 3a".
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These are just my thoughts.... I have no idea If I am right or Wrong....
...I have never seen a reference to enter a hold at a clearance limit without an onwards clearance. (Happy to read the Jeppesen world wide text for clarification if you can provide a reference, or maybe I have just forgotten some obscure reference)
I would be ensuring I had been given onward clearance instructions. (I have never not been provided with these, and would assume if having been given a STAR you would proceed in accordance with the STAR)
I would not randomly enter a hold unless specifically cleared or I was in non- controlled airspace and made appropriate calls, or if instructions are written on the STAR to enter a hold without clearance.
Most places provide a clearance such as - Cleared the Tommo 1 Alpha Arrival, Rwy XX, Maintain FL380, Expect to Hold at XX. ... Then if required come back with holding instructions.
Do you have a london (presume Heathrow) STAR chart (Jepps) you could provide a reference to, and where you would expect a Jet to enter a hold without clearance.
(I just had a look at that chart Tommo 1 A, and it is a little unusual with the clearance limit and holding pattern at the end....)
I guess if you are having troubles with compliance, why not remove the confusion and make the Clearance crystal clear - that way the pilot knows exactly what is expected, and you don't get any nasty surprises.
...I have never seen a reference to enter a hold at a clearance limit without an onwards clearance. (Happy to read the Jeppesen world wide text for clarification if you can provide a reference, or maybe I have just forgotten some obscure reference)
I would be ensuring I had been given onward clearance instructions. (I have never not been provided with these, and would assume if having been given a STAR you would proceed in accordance with the STAR)
I would not randomly enter a hold unless specifically cleared or I was in non- controlled airspace and made appropriate calls, or if instructions are written on the STAR to enter a hold without clearance.
Most places provide a clearance such as - Cleared the Tommo 1 Alpha Arrival, Rwy XX, Maintain FL380, Expect to Hold at XX. ... Then if required come back with holding instructions.
Do you have a london (presume Heathrow) STAR chart (Jepps) you could provide a reference to, and where you would expect a Jet to enter a hold without clearance.
(I just had a look at that chart Tommo 1 A, and it is a little unusual with the clearance limit and holding pattern at the end....)
I guess if you are having troubles with compliance, why not remove the confusion and make the Clearance crystal clear - that way the pilot knows exactly what is expected, and you don't get any nasty surprises.
