Pax Comment - Help Please from Boeing Drivers
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Also, I probably wouldn't go retarding the thrust levers at 30ft as a matter of course, I'm sure Parrabellum didn't mean you to transfer 747 techniques onto the 73 but I just thought I'd mention it in case you took it literally and thumped it on again next flight!
MRBH, those were 747 numbers, to be adjusted to the 737 as appropriate, though you wouldn't flare much below 10', I would have thought?
The best advice is to put the whole episode behind you and move on, you know from previous experience that you can do a decent landing and yes, we have all thumped them in at least once. One day you will laugh at what the pax said and tell the story in the bar.
Buttonpusher
You don't have to answer to someone that has no idea what they are talking about, just move on.
However if you make a less than stellar landing, tell your fellow crewmember : "Well thank God that one ended my streak of bad landings !"
It works for me ....
HTH
However if you make a less than stellar landing, tell your fellow crewmember : "Well thank God that one ended my streak of bad landings !"
It works for me ....
HTH
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Mrs rodge,
I suggest you read the flight crew training manual once again.
If you maintain the proper speed/path,start the flare at 20 feet,look down the runway,and only when ESTABLISHED in the flare,reduce the thrust to IDLE while pitching up a few degrees to counteract the nose dropping..
Even if you tried to make hard landings you wont be able too;-)
I suggest you read the flight crew training manual once again.
If you maintain the proper speed/path,start the flare at 20 feet,look down the runway,and only when ESTABLISHED in the flare,reduce the thrust to IDLE while pitching up a few degrees to counteract the nose dropping..
Even if you tried to make hard landings you wont be able too;-)
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To be honest, we all have a bad spell every now & again! For instance, I flew with a Captain who has been with our company for 15 years, flew the 737 first and now on A319/320.....he crunched it into my home base runway harder than any "firm" landing I have made since base training! You just have to try & put it behind you & not let it wind you up too much. It will all come together.
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Max autobrake setting can jolt a lot of people off their seatbacks and create unnecessary mental stress; I wouldn't recommend that setting unless other deceleration devices were inop and you were on a very short pavement.
I have no B73 info, but the B74 at 3000psi sustained brake application would come to a full stop in 3,800'
In all my years of flying, I have never used "Max" setting, except in the sim.
I have no B73 info, but the B74 at 3000psi sustained brake application would come to a full stop in 3,800'
In all my years of flying, I have never used "Max" setting, except in the sim.
Life's too short for ironing
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Firm landing? My response, regardless of the runway conditions, it is necessary to make a firm landing in order to make good contact through the surface water and prevent aqua-planing
One very experienced captain I flew with many years ago said that we all make mistakes, the trick is to reduce the number of mistakes each flight - that goes for SOPs and landings.
As for that passenger's response? Nasty
, rise above it and don't let her very bitter streak affect your self confidence.
One very experienced captain I flew with many years ago said that we all make mistakes, the trick is to reduce the number of mistakes each flight - that goes for SOPs and landings.
As for that passenger's response? Nasty
, rise above it and don't let her very bitter streak affect your self confidence.
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I am just a "for my fun" pilot, but a really frequent flyer. And I had in my live a lot of hard landings to experience.
**** happens (if it had been really ****) and that's it. Do you think, she is always perfect in her job (if she works at all).
**** happens (if it had been really ****) and that's it. Do you think, she is always perfect in her job (if she works at all).
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Well for a start, I'd certainly ignore the passenger comments.
For a start, as you well know, passengers have no idea about the situation, nor what actually makes a good landing. I've had passengers compliment me on the best landing they've ever felt after slamming it on, and conversely had people say it was a bad landing when it was as good as I've ever felt. Many really have no idea.
If you were floating, and looking like landing long on a short strip then the place to be is either on the ground, or going around. Who cares if its a bit firm? We're not talking hard, damaging the aircraft... just firm. You're safely on the runway, and decelerating... not chewing up valuable runway.
The thing I think you need to ask yourself is: Do you have confidence that you can put the aircraft on the runway in the touchdown zone repeatably? If the answer is yes, but sometimes its going to be a bit firm, then you've got nothing to worry about. Runways with slopes can be a prick. Just keep doing it. If the answer is no, and you don't have confidence you can put the aircraft where you need to, then you need to go back to basics, and get that right before worrying about smooth touchdowns.
I think sometimes we get caught up in the theory of it all. When it comes down to it you know where the wheels are, you know where the runway is... so just visualise putting the wheels where you want them, and do it.
For a start, as you well know, passengers have no idea about the situation, nor what actually makes a good landing. I've had passengers compliment me on the best landing they've ever felt after slamming it on, and conversely had people say it was a bad landing when it was as good as I've ever felt. Many really have no idea.
If you were floating, and looking like landing long on a short strip then the place to be is either on the ground, or going around. Who cares if its a bit firm? We're not talking hard, damaging the aircraft... just firm. You're safely on the runway, and decelerating... not chewing up valuable runway.
The thing I think you need to ask yourself is: Do you have confidence that you can put the aircraft on the runway in the touchdown zone repeatably? If the answer is yes, but sometimes its going to be a bit firm, then you've got nothing to worry about. Runways with slopes can be a prick. Just keep doing it. If the answer is no, and you don't have confidence you can put the aircraft where you need to, then you need to go back to basics, and get that right before worrying about smooth touchdowns.
I think sometimes we get caught up in the theory of it all. When it comes down to it you know where the wheels are, you know where the runway is... so just visualise putting the wheels where you want them, and do it.
As professional Pilots we are always our own harshest critics, and you probably always will be. Expecting the utmost from ourselves is normal in this career and that's a good thing.
Because of this, particularly when starting out, a firm landing for example may seem catastrophic in your mind (Passengers opinions do NOT count and you have no reason to apologise)
On an 1800 m runway it's more important than ever to get it down and stopped in quick order. In this respect do not forget that without doubt you accomplished the most important thing.
Believe me, everyone, and mostly you would be far more unhappy with a gentle touchdown too far down the runway and consequent overrun. Have a look at the Pictures of the AA738 in Jamaica and imagine how this crew feels now.
So, keep things in perspective, everyone crunches it on once in while, myself included. learn from it and move on.
A couple of things, make sure you are looking and keep looking at the END of the runway as you come over the threshold, I know you've heard this before but it is vital in judging your flare.
Try to be as close to target speed as possible while aggressively correcting high sink rates with power (especially close to the ground)
I would disagree with the 'mechanical' approach endorsed by some on this thread, especially with reducing power to idle at 50 ft. This may work on a 747 but not on most narrowbody's.
I do agree with 'Glueball' Max Autobrakes is quite severe and I have never used it outside of the sim. It also can make a firm arrival and ensuing rollout seem even more violent than it really needs to be.
If you cannot touchdown in the touchdown zone GO AROUND.
Take a careful look at your flight manual to see recommended settings for different runway lengths / conditions, and just as important talk to your Captains about what they think is appropriate. There may be a time one day when you need 'MAX' but in normal line service it would be very rare.
Try a lower setting and remember you can always trip them off and use manual brakes if you need more (max manual brakes is MORE than max autobrakes for landing) this will usually be smoother.
Happy landings.
Because of this, particularly when starting out, a firm landing for example may seem catastrophic in your mind (Passengers opinions do NOT count and you have no reason to apologise)
On an 1800 m runway it's more important than ever to get it down and stopped in quick order. In this respect do not forget that without doubt you accomplished the most important thing.
Believe me, everyone, and mostly you would be far more unhappy with a gentle touchdown too far down the runway and consequent overrun. Have a look at the Pictures of the AA738 in Jamaica and imagine how this crew feels now.
So, keep things in perspective, everyone crunches it on once in while, myself included. learn from it and move on.
A couple of things, make sure you are looking and keep looking at the END of the runway as you come over the threshold, I know you've heard this before but it is vital in judging your flare.
Try to be as close to target speed as possible while aggressively correcting high sink rates with power (especially close to the ground)
I would disagree with the 'mechanical' approach endorsed by some on this thread, especially with reducing power to idle at 50 ft. This may work on a 747 but not on most narrowbody's.
I do agree with 'Glueball' Max Autobrakes is quite severe and I have never used it outside of the sim. It also can make a firm arrival and ensuing rollout seem even more violent than it really needs to be.
If you cannot touchdown in the touchdown zone GO AROUND.
Take a careful look at your flight manual to see recommended settings for different runway lengths / conditions, and just as important talk to your Captains about what they think is appropriate. There may be a time one day when you need 'MAX' but in normal line service it would be very rare.
Try a lower setting and remember you can always trip them off and use manual brakes if you need more (max manual brakes is MORE than max autobrakes for landing) this will usually be smoother.
Happy landings.
Thread Starter
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"6000PIC Forgive me in advance for speaking the obvious , but your preoccupation with your inability to land an aircraft properly speaks volumes about your overall lack of experience , and your job has everything to do with your employer allowing you to gain that experience at the expense of numerous hard landings. To rephrase an old saying , "they get what you pay for". Don`t use the Boeing phrase firm landing to justify your inexperience. I`d be rather unhappy also , knowing as a passenger your overall experience operating any aircraft let alone a jet with fare paying passengers amounted to so little. What pray tell would happen someday your babysitter in the LH seat had an incapacitation event ? What a sorry state this industry is in."
Listen 6000PIC, what ever chip you have on your shoulder about low hours guys/gals getting into the RH seat you may drop it. It doesnt wash with me, in fact your whole post smells of "Ive got a big chip on my shoulder, because I had to wait to get a RH seat"... I have come across people like you in the past and do you know what, thats just life! Get over it.
Yes I have low hours, and yes I am inexperienced, but I have passed all my line checks and sim checks first time with high scores. I trained in one of the best flight schools in Europe and passed everything first time, and the biggest point to note... The civil aviation authority has licenced me to fly the ac!!!
Also, I dont need a baby sitter as you so eloquently put it! If this is your view on your job as capt, you may retire now, as it sounds like you need a refresher on crm!
Everyone else, thank you so much for the kind comments and advice, back to the driving this weekend. All good with no probs! It was just her comment that really stuck to the core of me.
Regards,
Mrs Rodge.
Listen 6000PIC, what ever chip you have on your shoulder about low hours guys/gals getting into the RH seat you may drop it. It doesnt wash with me, in fact your whole post smells of "Ive got a big chip on my shoulder, because I had to wait to get a RH seat"... I have come across people like you in the past and do you know what, thats just life! Get over it.
Yes I have low hours, and yes I am inexperienced, but I have passed all my line checks and sim checks first time with high scores. I trained in one of the best flight schools in Europe and passed everything first time, and the biggest point to note... The civil aviation authority has licenced me to fly the ac!!!
Also, I dont need a baby sitter as you so eloquently put it! If this is your view on your job as capt, you may retire now, as it sounds like you need a refresher on crm!
Everyone else, thank you so much for the kind comments and advice, back to the driving this weekend. All good with no probs! It was just her comment that really stuck to the core of me.
Regards,
Mrs Rodge.
Sod her, Mrs R. Get back on the horse and good luck in the future.
If I get on the centre line at the right speed in the landing zone running straight, I'm happy. Anything vaguely approaching soft is a bonus, esp on a short r/w. Whatever else you do, don't waste r/w striving for the greaser.
Mind you, I have one big advantage - being a night freight pilot, the parcels never complain.
All the best
DH
If I get on the centre line at the right speed in the landing zone running straight, I'm happy. Anything vaguely approaching soft is a bonus, esp on a short r/w. Whatever else you do, don't waste r/w striving for the greaser.
Mind you, I have one big advantage - being a night freight pilot, the parcels never complain.
All the best
DH
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Mrs Rodge I'm not a pilot but an Airbus CC and have been through a few "crunchers" in my time. One that really sticks in my mind was a Training Captain who almost buried it in the runway (his words)!!! It's not just the inexperienced who do it so don't sweat
As for the pax
. Some of them have an opinion on everything aviation which will include your flying skills. Some of them can be downright hurtful especially when you are not used to it. As CC we very quickly learn to rise above anything they know nothing about. You will in time I'm sure
As for the pax
. Some of them have an opinion on everything aviation which will include your flying skills. Some of them can be downright hurtful especially when you are not used to it. As CC we very quickly learn to rise above anything they know nothing about. You will in time I'm sure
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I always find its the calm cavok days that are the worst. At least with some wind you can shake the a/c around and make it look like it was a tough landing.
Dont sweat it at all, be clear in the knowlage that you will have many more hard landings, even on 10,500' long runways. I still do and have been on the a/c for 4.5 years now. Still not a long time but have had more than my fair share.
All pax are going to have bad days, not sure why the cc let the pax into the flight deck tho.
259.
Dont sweat it at all, be clear in the knowlage that you will have many more hard landings, even on 10,500' long runways. I still do and have been on the a/c for 4.5 years now. Still not a long time but have had more than my fair share.
All pax are going to have bad days, not sure why the cc let the pax into the flight deck tho.
259.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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As for the pax . Some of them have an opinion on everything aviation which will include your flying skills.
. Some of them have an opinion on everything aviation which will include your flying skills.
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Mrs. Rodge , what do you think your opinion will be of someone in the right hand seat in say, 15-20 years time henceforth ( if not sooner ), with your equivalent experience as at present , especially when you look back and realize how little you knew then ? Really try and think about that. Or perhaps you are unable to extrapolate such a concept ? How about this...would you want one of your parents operated on by an intern, just out of med school ? Or how about your brother or sister defended for a capital crime by a novice lawyer ? Just why does the flying public not deserve better ?? Do you understand or are you just taking this too personal to see the obvious ? We can all join hands and sing kumbaya as far as crm goes , but my point still stands - if you are focusing and worrying too much about landing an aircraft , you shouldn`t be there , at least have more training... or god forbid ... more experience. I`ve got no chip on my shoulder , it`s more like disgust that someone with such minimal experience is in control of a jet aircraft with members of the public paying to let you practice. Hooray for the CAA. At least they got their money.
'6000PIC'
Did you start your career with the same amount of experience as your 'moniker' then ?
Your self serving comments are inane and pointless. Every Doctor / Lawyer /
and yes professional Pilot has to start somewhere.
Even with low experience that means they will be operating on patients, representing clients in court and yes, flying passengers without the seasoning
of those who have been doing it for thousands of hours.
Thats why you start in the right seat remember ? the Captain is not there as a 'babysitter' he or she is however in a position to be a mentor and a powerful influence on the establishment of good habit patterns with new and inexperienced First Officers.
Personally I consider it one of the greatest privileges of command and do my best to show a good example.
A firm landing once in a while happens to all of us. Criticizing someone for it is completely counterproductive and potentially can cause a major loss of confidence just when it is needed most.
A quiet word with a friendly tip or two can and will go a long way (and it will never be forgotten)
You seem to have lost the plot old chap..
Did you start your career with the same amount of experience as your 'moniker' then ?
Your self serving comments are inane and pointless. Every Doctor / Lawyer /
and yes professional Pilot has to start somewhere.
Even with low experience that means they will be operating on patients, representing clients in court and yes, flying passengers without the seasoning
of those who have been doing it for thousands of hours.
Thats why you start in the right seat remember ? the Captain is not there as a 'babysitter' he or she is however in a position to be a mentor and a powerful influence on the establishment of good habit patterns with new and inexperienced First Officers.
Personally I consider it one of the greatest privileges of command and do my best to show a good example.
A firm landing once in a while happens to all of us. Criticizing someone for it is completely counterproductive and potentially can cause a major loss of confidence just when it is needed most.
A quiet word with a friendly tip or two can and will go a long way (and it will never be forgotten)
You seem to have lost the plot old chap..
I announced to the Pub. that I had just returned from a freighter trip and one old bugger asked when was I going to be considered good enough to fly passengers ! I told him I VOLUNTEERED for the freight trips because a) freight doesn't complain ( as has been mentioned already ) and b) you can play with the aeroplane and only your Captain will complain.
Once had a Captains' windscreen totally mist over on a night landing, he was a ' new' Captain and was forbidden to 'give' landings to co-pilots until he had more experience in Command, and suggested that therefore he had to change seats ! ( he was actually more experienced from the right hand seat than the left at that stage ) I talked him out of that but he insisted on completing what became a somewhat firm landing himself instead of handing it to me.
Walking through the terminal we heard a passenger remark to his wife that it was a poor landing - but I suppose the co-pilot did it !!!
I heard of a 707 Capt. telling the handling co-pilot that he wanted to hear the landing gear oleo relays clicking in and out as they landed vveerrry smoothly. The landing was OK and the Capt. handled the next leg. His landing crashed it in from a great height, and having finally wrestled the beast to a halt, the co-pilot leaned across and said " Click, f***ing Click " !!
People used to ask me why I was still flying at nearly 60 yrs. old ? Cos I'm still trying to get it right, I said.
My last flight, 747-300 and an Instructor too, was in a cross-wind and I didn't make the best job of it that was probably possible that night - and I will never get the chance to redeem myself now, sod it !!
If you push the pole forward at an estimated 5 ft. above the deck on a 747, you can just rrollll the main wheels on. Sometimes. Feels great.
Once had a Captains' windscreen totally mist over on a night landing, he was a ' new' Captain and was forbidden to 'give' landings to co-pilots until he had more experience in Command, and suggested that therefore he had to change seats ! ( he was actually more experienced from the right hand seat than the left at that stage ) I talked him out of that but he insisted on completing what became a somewhat firm landing himself instead of handing it to me.
Walking through the terminal we heard a passenger remark to his wife that it was a poor landing - but I suppose the co-pilot did it !!!
I heard of a 707 Capt. telling the handling co-pilot that he wanted to hear the landing gear oleo relays clicking in and out as they landed vveerrry smoothly. The landing was OK and the Capt. handled the next leg. His landing crashed it in from a great height, and having finally wrestled the beast to a halt, the co-pilot leaned across and said " Click, f***ing Click " !!
People used to ask me why I was still flying at nearly 60 yrs. old ? Cos I'm still trying to get it right, I said.
My last flight, 747-300 and an Instructor too, was in a cross-wind and I didn't make the best job of it that was probably possible that night - and I will never get the chance to redeem myself now, sod it !!
If you push the pole forward at an estimated 5 ft. above the deck on a 747, you can just rrollll the main wheels on. Sometimes. Feels great.
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A guy told me that during training the training capt smashed it onto the runway with frightening force. On the taxi in the trg capt said what do you think experience tells me about the landing. The trainee tried his best to critique the technique etc and to come up with some valid points.
All good, the training capt replied but no, what experience teaches me is not to give a ****.
Sometimes no matter how hard you try you will balls it up. In fact the harder you try the worse it becomes! You are now probably trying so hard and getting stressed about trying to make a good landing at this particular runway that you are not performing at your best. Stress reduces capacity and all that. Try and relax a bit and you will start to roll it on. Stop caring so much and I bet they get better.
Don't worry if it doesn't happen over night.
P.S slightly disappointed the capt didn't defend you. All they had to say is that while firm it was a safe landing and that they felt it didn't warrant that sort of comment and could they please leave. That or piss off you trout!
All good, the training capt replied but no, what experience teaches me is not to give a ****.
Sometimes no matter how hard you try you will balls it up. In fact the harder you try the worse it becomes! You are now probably trying so hard and getting stressed about trying to make a good landing at this particular runway that you are not performing at your best. Stress reduces capacity and all that. Try and relax a bit and you will start to roll it on. Stop caring so much and I bet they get better.
Don't worry if it doesn't happen over night.
P.S slightly disappointed the capt didn't defend you. All they had to say is that while firm it was a safe landing and that they felt it didn't warrant that sort of comment and could they please leave. That or piss off you trout!