Flight deck visits
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You obviously have absolutely no idea how impossible flight deck visits have become since 9/11
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I wento n a flight-deck in 2008 ,it wasnt a uk airline.And also i got to have seat on the jumpseat whilst landing in dubai.As soon as we landed and taxied to the gate he told me to go back to my seat and not to tell anyone.
btw it was an A330.
btw it was an A330.
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Look, we don't need to justify the security rules to 'aviation fans' with no experience- if other airlines want to go around breaking them into or out of the UK, and the DfT hears about it, then I would imagine their very licence to operate to the UK would be under threat. Let's get this clear- the flight deck is no place to entertain visitors, especially completely inexperienced people who don't know how to conduct themselves. I've been flying 747s with hundreds of people on board, and had visitors with extraordinary behaviour:
*people who were drunk and decided they'd fancy asking to see the FD. It is not nice suddenly realising people are far more inebriated than immediately shows
*'fathers who want to bring their son to see the FD'. Up comes a man with a baby in nappies looking frightened and confused! Men with only children tend to do daft things like that.
*Yappers who can't stop talking, even during the landing
*Enthusiasts who don't know when enough is enough
For the safety of all the people on board, the FD is not the place to make intros and chat away. We had several visitors on a 747 when and engine surged quietly. We were all turning around talking. After a few seconds I had a niggling thought- that 'knock' I heard a few seconds ago sounded just like a surge, but quieter. When I looked to the front and checked the engine instruments, the exhaust temperature of one of the engines was running away uncontrolled. It was an immediate shut down, full power on remaining and start a descent and return. Whilst herding everybody out.
Once again, those days are gone. Good. And as an experienced professional with 38 years as an airline pilot and 21,000 hours, I am not going to get taken to task by an 'enthusiast' in this professional forum who doesn't appear to agree with the regulations as stated by the authorities!
*people who were drunk and decided they'd fancy asking to see the FD. It is not nice suddenly realising people are far more inebriated than immediately shows
*'fathers who want to bring their son to see the FD'. Up comes a man with a baby in nappies looking frightened and confused! Men with only children tend to do daft things like that.
*Yappers who can't stop talking, even during the landing
*Enthusiasts who don't know when enough is enough
For the safety of all the people on board, the FD is not the place to make intros and chat away. We had several visitors on a 747 when and engine surged quietly. We were all turning around talking. After a few seconds I had a niggling thought- that 'knock' I heard a few seconds ago sounded just like a surge, but quieter. When I looked to the front and checked the engine instruments, the exhaust temperature of one of the engines was running away uncontrolled. It was an immediate shut down, full power on remaining and start a descent and return. Whilst herding everybody out.
Once again, those days are gone. Good. And as an experienced professional with 38 years as an airline pilot and 21,000 hours, I am not going to get taken to task by an 'enthusiast' in this professional forum who doesn't appear to agree with the regulations as stated by the authorities!
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Rainboe - Happy New Year
Whilst I agree with you about not having strangers on the FD - I still have a hard time understanding why I should say no to a colleague pilot trying to get home from a trip to London, if the plane is fully booked.
Just for the record - I abide by the rules in the UK - I just feel stupid leaving a colleague behind, when we have two perfectly good JS' on the FD.
Whilst I agree with you about not having strangers on the FD - I still have a hard time understanding why I should say no to a colleague pilot trying to get home from a trip to London, if the plane is fully booked.
Just for the record - I abide by the rules in the UK - I just feel stupid leaving a colleague behind, when we have two perfectly good JS' on the FD.
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Rainboe
I agree with you about flight deck visits from pax but the whole issue of flight deck access in the UK is govened by the PC paranoia of the current UK goverment, this along with other policys of Nu Labour just shows the contol that they want over the lives of the citizens of the UK.
The fact that I cant take my Wife, Father or Mother on the flight deck when they pose no security threat whatsoever is one thing but the no being able to take a serving RAF Officer who was working on a CRM project and wanted to take a look at a civil opperation ?
Has the whole UK gone mad?
I am so pleased not to be working for a UK AOC holder, it removes most of the PC rubbish thrust down the aviation industrys throat by the NU Labour crettins.
The fact that I cant take my Wife, Father or Mother on the flight deck when they pose no security threat whatsoever is one thing but the no being able to take a serving RAF Officer who was working on a CRM project and wanted to take a look at a civil opperation ?
Has the whole UK gone mad?
I am so pleased not to be working for a UK AOC holder, it removes most of the PC rubbish thrust down the aviation industrys throat by the NU Labour crettins.
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Well said Rainboe.
As a now retired F/E my experience of 'Flight Deck Visitors' hasn't always been a pleasant one; especially when flying a holiday charter flight! There can be nothing worse than having a passenger bum shoved in your face whilst they try and get closer to the businness-end of the FD. I'll also concur with Rainboe about the father wanting to bring his six-month son onto the FD and then to proceed in pointing out the various controls to a son who doesn't understand a word about what he's talking about... actually, neither did the father; yet another aviation Geek!
In an aeroplane such as the L1011-1, all of the passengers can see the constant stream of visitors to the front-end; not to mention those queueing for the forward toilets; until, eventually, you'd think this was a queue for a ride at Disnyland.
To be fair, there were the odd few visitors who showed a genuine interest in how we did things; except that they were few and far between.
Ultimately, our visitors became a huge distraction from the task that we were supposed to be doing; safely flying from A to B. I would eventually call a halt to anymore visitors to the FD, but would often be rebuked by the Skipper for being a 'spoil-sport'.
In later years, whilst flying the B747-200, it became less obvious that visitors were on the FD. Nonetheless, all that seperated the FD from the upper deck cabin was a curtain; which didn't prevent the odd drunken passenger from bursting into the 'office' unannounced.
The 'Good 'Ole Days' have long gone, but the terrorist threat cannot be ignored... I wholeheartedly approve of a locked door. That being said, the rules are somewhat 'over-the-top' in preventing an off-duty crewmember from using the seat to get back home after a long duty-day.
As for FD visitors; it should be the Skippers descision and not a blanket rule as decreed by the DoT. However, given that all FDs are now crewed by only two pilots... I'd rather not have any visitors at all. Bah Humbug.
TCF
As a now retired F/E my experience of 'Flight Deck Visitors' hasn't always been a pleasant one; especially when flying a holiday charter flight! There can be nothing worse than having a passenger bum shoved in your face whilst they try and get closer to the businness-end of the FD. I'll also concur with Rainboe about the father wanting to bring his six-month son onto the FD and then to proceed in pointing out the various controls to a son who doesn't understand a word about what he's talking about... actually, neither did the father; yet another aviation Geek!
In an aeroplane such as the L1011-1, all of the passengers can see the constant stream of visitors to the front-end; not to mention those queueing for the forward toilets; until, eventually, you'd think this was a queue for a ride at Disnyland.
To be fair, there were the odd few visitors who showed a genuine interest in how we did things; except that they were few and far between.
Ultimately, our visitors became a huge distraction from the task that we were supposed to be doing; safely flying from A to B. I would eventually call a halt to anymore visitors to the FD, but would often be rebuked by the Skipper for being a 'spoil-sport'.
In later years, whilst flying the B747-200, it became less obvious that visitors were on the FD. Nonetheless, all that seperated the FD from the upper deck cabin was a curtain; which didn't prevent the odd drunken passenger from bursting into the 'office' unannounced.
The 'Good 'Ole Days' have long gone, but the terrorist threat cannot be ignored... I wholeheartedly approve of a locked door. That being said, the rules are somewhat 'over-the-top' in preventing an off-duty crewmember from using the seat to get back home after a long duty-day.
As for FD visitors; it should be the Skippers descision and not a blanket rule as decreed by the DoT. However, given that all FDs are now crewed by only two pilots... I'd rather not have any visitors at all. Bah Humbug.
TCF
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a flight deck moving at nearly 600mph is not really the place to make introductions and offer hospitality! The pilots, if they are so inclined, can make themselves at the exit door of most aeroplanes to say goodbye, and I do try and do this most flights. When you see how congested airspace is these days, even in the middle of the north atlantic, and how fast closing speeds are (about 1200 mph), I'm afraid the days of the 'office' being a 'meet and have a chat' arena are most definitely over.
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You can't mean that!
Yes, the rules are far too draconian. I can't take ATC on look-see trips, no family or other airline colleagues on the FD- it's ridiculous. But this thread has been about the policy of banning general visitors, not colleagues. Most visits were prompted by idle and bored curiousity. I got tired of succumbing to peoples' urges about their curiosity, and I agree, over 90% of visits were a waste of time for people who had absolutely no comprehension of what was going on in any way. That the small percentage of visits for people who really got something out of it is also lost is sad, but necessary.
Normally, a law change allows for fine tuning as experience is gained, and exceptions should be made for military, ATC and staff, but it seems our useless politicians have their ears closed to any suggestions. But as for Joe Public- no, sorry, it is not the right place, and it will never be changed. At the moment, there is a common factor in all the assaults, one religion. Next it will be an ethnic group feeling hard done by, a particular nationality, maybe even crazed greenies! They will launch themselves as predators on the peaceful system of air travel because that gets the big publicity, just like the last set of creeps. That is why the general public ban must stay.
Yes, the rules are far too draconian. I can't take ATC on look-see trips, no family or other airline colleagues on the FD- it's ridiculous. But this thread has been about the policy of banning general visitors, not colleagues. Most visits were prompted by idle and bored curiousity. I got tired of succumbing to peoples' urges about their curiosity, and I agree, over 90% of visits were a waste of time for people who had absolutely no comprehension of what was going on in any way. That the small percentage of visits for people who really got something out of it is also lost is sad, but necessary.
Normally, a law change allows for fine tuning as experience is gained, and exceptions should be made for military, ATC and staff, but it seems our useless politicians have their ears closed to any suggestions. But as for Joe Public- no, sorry, it is not the right place, and it will never be changed. At the moment, there is a common factor in all the assaults, one religion. Next it will be an ethnic group feeling hard done by, a particular nationality, maybe even crazed greenies! They will launch themselves as predators on the peaceful system of air travel because that gets the big publicity, just like the last set of creeps. That is why the general public ban must stay.
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Rainboe, I have one question. If those passengers were causing you trouble / distracting you on the flight deck of a 747 (and I do not doubt for one minute that they were indeed a nusiance), why did you not simply refuse them access? It is within your authority as the captain to do so and there is no obligation to entertain passengers.
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How do you know they are inebriated or bringing a frightened infant or uncontrollable chatterboxes until they are in the FD? The cabin crew didn't know them- they just relayed the request to the FD.
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I would absolutely cherish a jumpseat ride, I really, really would.
From the point of view of a passenger who is well-behaved, respects that there are times when the crew CANNOT be distracted and knows that obviously I can't touch a button or a switch, I think it's a shame that flightdeck visits are banned in the UK, thanks to Terrorists and other stupid passengers.
I'll have to wait at-least 3 years before I can fly with an EU airline that has relaxed rules (Parents only travel with UK airlines).
Then again, in a few years time I may be an Engineer going to an AOG job and hopefully getting a jumpseat ride on the way
From the point of view of a passenger who is well-behaved, respects that there are times when the crew CANNOT be distracted and knows that obviously I can't touch a button or a switch, I think it's a shame that flightdeck visits are banned in the UK, thanks to Terrorists and other stupid passengers.
I'll have to wait at-least 3 years before I can fly with an EU airline that has relaxed rules (Parents only travel with UK airlines).
Then again, in a few years time I may be an Engineer going to an AOG job and hopefully getting a jumpseat ride on the way
I too found that I could control the flight deck visits without the help of a government edict. On long flights it was a delight to speak to some of our pax, if they became tedious it was a pretty simple matter to become 'busy' and say goodbye. Requests were always vetted by the crew and overall, I never had any bad experiences in years. Sadly, now we are cowed by terror of any and everyone.
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"Such visits by passengers are not encouraged, but many readers may have made them, and the pattern of the occasion does not vary greatly. There is a rather confusing contrast between the light inside and outside the flight deck, a bewildering display of dials and gauges. Two or more crew members engage the visitor in disjointed conversation, switching on some of the more interesting displays like the radar. The pilots seem to have some desultory radio contact with the ground, and from time to time a hand may be lazily extended to adjust a throttle lever, or correct the automatic pilot. It is an atmosphere of bored disinterestedness, and after the inevitable effort has been made by the passenger to locate which of the many dials is the clock, he returns to the cabin very ready to believe what he has heard about the boring aspects of the pilot's life. Such visits are, especially to people with little imagination, disappointing." (Captain Lincoln Lee: Three Dimensioned Darkness - The World of the Airline Pilot.)
Captain Lee, a BOAC Comet captain, wrote that in 1962. Sums it up very well, eh? However, when the rules prevent people with a genuine interest in being there - air traffic controllers, or the general secretary of BALPA who had to ride the flightdeck of a KLM 777 to appreciate the job that we do - surely it's time for a bit of common sense from the D.of T. Not that I'm holding my breath!
Captain Lee, a BOAC Comet captain, wrote that in 1962. Sums it up very well, eh? However, when the rules prevent people with a genuine interest in being there - air traffic controllers, or the general secretary of BALPA who had to ride the flightdeck of a KLM 777 to appreciate the job that we do - surely it's time for a bit of common sense from the D.of T. Not that I'm holding my breath!
Last edited by Georgeablelovehowindia; 17th Jan 2010 at 09:42. Reason: Light of day proof reading ... double 'the' eliminated!
I agree that the cockpit / Flight Deck is no place for Disneyland jolly's, it was my 'office'. How many of those who are bemoaning the loss of their pleasures will tomorrow force their way past the bank teller, with a cheery wave of their hand, saying that they are just going to watch the Manager working in his office ? They'd be thrown out on their ear if they tried it, at the very least.
Nevertheless I did allow visits on occasions, but would often ask the cabin crew for details, approx age, sex, sobriety and to go back and ask why the visit was being requested ? That kept most of them away.
I was once asked to sign a birthday card cobbled up by the cabin crew for a lady passenger. I refused until I had seen her and asked that she be invited to the Flight deck. We will have been married 22 years in April !
Yes, 9/11 was a terrible event, ( some might say so was 11 Sept. 1934 - my birthday !! ) but I knew of many more thousands being murdered in London, Bristol, Liverpool, Coventry etc.during 1940 and 1941, but many fellow countrymen of Bravesbaseball ( # 26 ) didn't give a stuff, or even know - until their precious Pearl Harbour was attacked - and Thank God it was, or I could now be speaking German if even still alive, but the geneflucting and hand-wringing and security crap demanded by the present descendants of those same citizens in response to that tragedy, is out of all proportion, and so experienced and professional airline crew are now forbiddden to let even their own family sit in their 'office' should they choose, or take a pair of nail-clippers in their jacket pocket.
Truly the Lunatics are Running the Asylum.
My congratulations to all my ex-colleagues, and their successors, who have restrained themselves whilst still putting up with the airport security nonsense - I'd be in jail for assault by now, and may well still be, as the lady whose birthday card I signed is American - and I still have to visit !! and keeping my cool is increasingly difficult.
Nevertheless I did allow visits on occasions, but would often ask the cabin crew for details, approx age, sex, sobriety and to go back and ask why the visit was being requested ? That kept most of them away.
I was once asked to sign a birthday card cobbled up by the cabin crew for a lady passenger. I refused until I had seen her and asked that she be invited to the Flight deck. We will have been married 22 years in April !
.........We saw thousands of people murdered
Truly the Lunatics are Running the Asylum.
My congratulations to all my ex-colleagues, and their successors, who have restrained themselves whilst still putting up with the airport security nonsense - I'd be in jail for assault by now, and may well still be, as the lady whose birthday card I signed is American - and I still have to visit !! and keeping my cool is increasingly difficult.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 17th Jan 2010 at 19:45.
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One of the last Air France Concorde round-the-bays (2003).... and cockpit visits for everyone.
Less than a minute a head, but even that was enough to scan the panels, note the AFCS modes, and generally see the same bits and bobs I had helped develop and test thirty years earlier still doing the job they were designed for.
I was lucky to be among the first, so we were still on the return part of the flight... the rear cabin had to wait until after landing.
I'm glad to this day, that their rules allowed it...
Merci les gars pour une minute inoubliable !
CJ
Less than a minute a head, but even that was enough to scan the panels, note the AFCS modes, and generally see the same bits and bobs I had helped develop and test thirty years earlier still doing the job they were designed for.
I was lucky to be among the first, so we were still on the return part of the flight... the rear cabin had to wait until after landing.
I'm glad to this day, that their rules allowed it...
Merci les gars pour une minute inoubliable !
CJ
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FD visits.
Yes, allowed by our management, with stipulations.
No children under the age of 15...I will have no snot-nosed ankle biters on my FD, thank you (and, make no mistake, it is my flight deck whilst I'm in charge of the flight, IE: Commander), and intelligent questions are answered to the best of our ability...whilst keeping a straight face, that is....
Technical questions are referred to our Flight Engineer, the technical store-house of knowledge...that NO flight should be without.
NB.
To those crews that don't have that professional Flight Engineer...your loss is our gain.
Thank you.
PS.
Forgot to mention, our type is...L1011.
Yes, and we still make a profit with the 'ole girl.
Yes, allowed by our management, with stipulations.
No children under the age of 15...I will have no snot-nosed ankle biters on my FD, thank you (and, make no mistake, it is my flight deck whilst I'm in charge of the flight, IE: Commander), and intelligent questions are answered to the best of our ability...whilst keeping a straight face, that is....
Technical questions are referred to our Flight Engineer, the technical store-house of knowledge...that NO flight should be without.
NB.
To those crews that don't have that professional Flight Engineer...your loss is our gain.
Thank you.
PS.
Forgot to mention, our type is...L1011.
Yes, and we still make a profit with the 'ole girl.
