Testing for Fatigue
Thread Starter
Testing for Fatigue
With all the talk about fatigue at he moment I am wondering if there are any "fatigue testing " systems in the development pipeline.
I envisage a system whereby the tech-crew brief their days flying and then log on to a secure website and carry out a 30 second cognative/coordination test similar to the "monkey-box" type tests the military use for selection. The individual has their own password and a database for that individual compares todays scores/times with their historic average. If their score is 15% lower/slower than their average then they cannot fly. It would pick up all sorts of things, fatigue, drinking, common illnesses that affect performance etc.
It would take a month or two upon joining the company for a decent amount of data to be logged for each individual but that doesn't matter, they will most likely be training during that time anyway and with a training captain. It sounds a bit far fetched now but if it was common place I think we would come to view it as just another part of the signing on process. I am not envisaging anything difficult, maybe keep the ball inside the box with your right hand while answering basic maths quetsions with your left hand (3 x 7 =.... kinda stuff) . I know that deviding my attention like that becomes much more of a challenge at 1am on the 4th day of 4 sector days and I really have to concentrate on keeping my scan going when for example , hand flying an approach.
So the question again, are there any "fatigue testing systems" in the development pipeline?
Regards,
Framer
I envisage a system whereby the tech-crew brief their days flying and then log on to a secure website and carry out a 30 second cognative/coordination test similar to the "monkey-box" type tests the military use for selection. The individual has their own password and a database for that individual compares todays scores/times with their historic average. If their score is 15% lower/slower than their average then they cannot fly. It would pick up all sorts of things, fatigue, drinking, common illnesses that affect performance etc.
It would take a month or two upon joining the company for a decent amount of data to be logged for each individual but that doesn't matter, they will most likely be training during that time anyway and with a training captain. It sounds a bit far fetched now but if it was common place I think we would come to view it as just another part of the signing on process. I am not envisaging anything difficult, maybe keep the ball inside the box with your right hand while answering basic maths quetsions with your left hand (3 x 7 =.... kinda stuff) . I know that deviding my attention like that becomes much more of a challenge at 1am on the 4th day of 4 sector days and I really have to concentrate on keeping my scan going when for example , hand flying an approach.
So the question again, are there any "fatigue testing systems" in the development pipeline?
Regards,
Framer
Thread Starter
Just to add to that, "Loss of control" has taken over from CFIT as the number one killer in airline flying. Many think that this may be misleading as 'loss of control' is the consequence and not the reason. The reason being fatigue. If we can make a big dent in the fatgue issue we will solve many many incidents and accidents, not just he headline ones. Thousands of altitude busts, hundreds of taxi incidents, countless SOP's breachs, long/heavy/short landings, RTO's due to incorrect configs, etc etc etc. If we can use technology combined with legislation we can take another leap forward in aviation safety similar to what occurred with the advent of of EGPWS.
Your thoughts,
Framer
Your thoughts,
Framer
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The best test for me ,was being unable to find my parked car after my third night flight.The first thing that goes when you are fatigued is sound judgement.This is totally incompatible with our profession,however it's onset is obvious to everyone except you.Glad for me,it's a thing of the past.
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Framer. Agreed. There are so many unreported incidents, everyday, that were mistakes caused by triedness = loss of concentration. No serious event ensuded and so they are never heard of. A smoking hole will take a long time to be proved to have been caused by fatigue, if ever. The best we might get is "it could have been a contributing factor". It will never be offfered as primary. The forces at work to sweep tiredness under trhe carpet are enormous. I say again, FTL's have been extended, or nort reduced, to match the extended performance of the a/c and keep down costs. Some CAA's have said that increased automation will compensate for this. (In 1990's, Italian rules said that the autopilot was a 3rd crew member. Thus upto 17hrs was allowed with an autopilot a/c. Add a 3rd pilot and the duty time went to 24 hrs. However, at that time no a/c could fly that .long and would have to land a refuel disrupting any rest-time. Madness.) But the attitude prevails. With so many back up systems the pilots will not have to be wide awake hot-shots to save the day. There is lies the error in thinking. Many serviceable a/c are crashed by un-serviceable crew. Tiredness also brings about irritability and that can cause rushing in normal circumstances, especially when late and everything has been working against you. Poor judgement and a smoking hole, or perhaps a more minor unreported incident.
However, fully servicedable well trained crew can save an unserviceable a/c. Things do go wrong, and is that not one main reason why we are there; to be proactive, preventative and an insurance policy. Read the thread on handling skills. Not all airports are Cat 3 equiped to take the strain at the end of a long period of working days/nights. Sometimes the last few moments have to be hand flown. Lousy weather, low class nav aids etc, short rwy's etc. Not a good recipe, but hey it's legal.
Paqs safety should not be confused with macho long hours work. Quite the opposite. Who would get on board an a/c knowing the crew had FTL's f 24 hrs? This is what pax do in blind faith. It is legal in their country, so it must be OK. But I sure as hell like to know who I'm flying with and a little of their background. Being 'legal' is not always a safe-guard. It's legal to drive at 70mph on a motorway. To do so in rain when tried at 04.00 is legal, but is it a good idea?
The battle is triedness v cost. The financial muscle is greater than the social argument from crews. Look what happened about the radiation argument, the DVT argument, the current toxic fumes argument. There is a very lumpy carpet at the various CAA's and government's transport's departments. Fatigue has been talked about for over 30 years and the square root of f'all has been done about it. Don't hold your breath, but don't give it up either. Simple challenge to the medices, CAA bods and politicians; go fly a weeks roster on the jump seat and then we may listen to your opinions.
However, fully servicedable well trained crew can save an unserviceable a/c. Things do go wrong, and is that not one main reason why we are there; to be proactive, preventative and an insurance policy. Read the thread on handling skills. Not all airports are Cat 3 equiped to take the strain at the end of a long period of working days/nights. Sometimes the last few moments have to be hand flown. Lousy weather, low class nav aids etc, short rwy's etc. Not a good recipe, but hey it's legal.
Paqs safety should not be confused with macho long hours work. Quite the opposite. Who would get on board an a/c knowing the crew had FTL's f 24 hrs? This is what pax do in blind faith. It is legal in their country, so it must be OK. But I sure as hell like to know who I'm flying with and a little of their background. Being 'legal' is not always a safe-guard. It's legal to drive at 70mph on a motorway. To do so in rain when tried at 04.00 is legal, but is it a good idea?
The battle is triedness v cost. The financial muscle is greater than the social argument from crews. Look what happened about the radiation argument, the DVT argument, the current toxic fumes argument. There is a very lumpy carpet at the various CAA's and government's transport's departments. Fatigue has been talked about for over 30 years and the square root of f'all has been done about it. Don't hold your breath, but don't give it up either. Simple challenge to the medices, CAA bods and politicians; go fly a weeks roster on the jump seat and then we may listen to your opinions.
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In development - almost available
Look here: Pupillography as an objective indicator of fatigue; Current Eye Research - 21(1):Pages 535-542 - Informa Healthcare
It works, I saw them testing it on truck-drivers, voluntarily however. Shocking!
Once available we will find the airlines/operators putting all they have against such a system….
And probably the truck drivers have a similar lobbying-problem.
It works, I saw them testing it on truck-drivers, voluntarily however. Shocking!
Once available we will find the airlines/operators putting all they have against such a system….
And probably the truck drivers have a similar lobbying-problem.
Thread Starter
Cheers guys, I think we all agree on the forces at play and also that people who don't fly aircraft generally don't understand what it is that pilots are doing and therefore are not well equiped to make decsisions about how long we can fly for before it becomes a safety hazard.
That is what I like about the idea proposed above. It is fairly black and white and hard to argue with the results of a simple test. I am sure many people have had the idea before me as it's quite a simple one but right now, with the ground swell of opposition to dangerous F&D regulations, I would like to know whether a)something similar has already been trialled.
b) in your opinion, it would work if mandated
c) it would save lives and money
That is what I like about the idea proposed above. It is fairly black and white and hard to argue with the results of a simple test. I am sure many people have had the idea before me as it's quite a simple one but right now, with the ground swell of opposition to dangerous F&D regulations, I would like to know whether a)something similar has already been trialled.
b) in your opinion, it would work if mandated
c) it would save lives and money
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Fatigue testing seems to be almost as old as flying..
MEDICAL NOTES 1919
THE WEAR AND TEAR OF FLYING
By Captain T. S. RIPPON-, R.A.F. Medical Service
medical notes | mental fatigue | candidate | 1919 | 0108 | Flight Archive
ONE of the problems the commercial aircraft firms will have to face when passenger work becomes common will be how their pilots are lasting. It is obvious that a pilot who has to fly regularly in all sorts of weather will require a rest periodically. How is one to discover this ? Fortunately one of the
great discoveries of the War from a medical standpoint was made by a specialist at the R.A.F. Medical Research Depart-ment—Lieut.-Col. Flack—who before the War was associated with Professor Leonard Hill, the well-known physiologist and expert on oxygen. Lieut.-Col. Flack, who is a physiologist, discovered by a series of examinations of successful pilots and of pilots sent back from France for a rest that one of the indications of
" stress " was fatigue of the various bodily systems (respiratory, circulatory, and nervous), and he invented a simple and ingenious method of testing this fatigue.
Continues...
MEDICAL NOTES 1919
THE WEAR AND TEAR OF FLYING
By Captain T. S. RIPPON-, R.A.F. Medical Service
medical notes | mental fatigue | candidate | 1919 | 0108 | Flight Archive
ONE of the problems the commercial aircraft firms will have to face when passenger work becomes common will be how their pilots are lasting. It is obvious that a pilot who has to fly regularly in all sorts of weather will require a rest periodically. How is one to discover this ? Fortunately one of the
great discoveries of the War from a medical standpoint was made by a specialist at the R.A.F. Medical Research Depart-ment—Lieut.-Col. Flack—who before the War was associated with Professor Leonard Hill, the well-known physiologist and expert on oxygen. Lieut.-Col. Flack, who is a physiologist, discovered by a series of examinations of successful pilots and of pilots sent back from France for a rest that one of the indications of
" stress " was fatigue of the various bodily systems (respiratory, circulatory, and nervous), and he invented a simple and ingenious method of testing this fatigue.
Continues...
Thread Starter
Frosch, would you have to go into a dark room for 10 mins to do that test or could it be done in a minute or so?
I didn't have time to download the pdf sorry, I will tomorrow.
I didn't have time to download the pdf sorry, I will tomorrow.
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Call me jaded but I don't think fatigue will ever be properly addressed.
In this "flat world" the trend is the opposite - more productivity, less benefits.
There's always someone who will happily do your job for half price. Just have to pass a few "open skies" agreements......
In this "flat world" the trend is the opposite - more productivity, less benefits.
There's always someone who will happily do your job for half price. Just have to pass a few "open skies" agreements......
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No "dark room". In the report I saw they had the equipment installed in a small bus and made the test on a highway motor station. They asked truckers if they would like to participate - and those who did looked into the apparatus and got their pupil-reaction tested. From what I remember the reaction time is more or less connected to fatigue.
No cheating.
No cheating.
Warning Toxic!
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I was involved in Farnborough sleep deprivation tests over 2 days about 25 years ago. The results were startling. Performance improved greatly in a fatigued situation- I assume because you are tired, you give full attention to the test or task without distraction. However the moment the task became boring or repetive, you rapidly lost it, and even conked out unconscious. But the actual simulator tasks (bombing a target on a bearing and distance from a point at a particular time) was enormously improved after sleep deprivation.
I don't believe silly little tests will tell you how tired you are. When enormously fatigued, you have 100% efficient modes interspersed with periods of enormous tiredness and lack of concentration.
I don't know why we bother with the EU. Quite simply the politicians have been dictated to be the big airlines, and what is good for the pilots (and passengers) has not really been considered.
I don't believe silly little tests will tell you how tired you are. When enormously fatigued, you have 100% efficient modes interspersed with periods of enormous tiredness and lack of concentration.
I don't know why we bother with the EU. Quite simply the politicians have been dictated to be the big airlines, and what is good for the pilots (and passengers) has not really been considered.
Thread Starter
hmmmm, this thread seems to have died pretty quickly after being moved. Never mind, it is a question I guess.
Rainbow, your test reults surprise me a bit as I guess they did you. It is a different situation though and I don't think anyone will tell you that the crews performance improves dramatically on a typical airline flight when they are fatigued (as I'm sure you'd agree).
If mandatory fatigue testing prior to starting a duty were normal practice today....what steps would have preceeded it? ie, would BALPA and the likes have had to lobby publicly for it and been supported by the public, who would vote on it? FAA? JAA?
Rainbow, your test reults surprise me a bit as I guess they did you. It is a different situation though and I don't think anyone will tell you that the crews performance improves dramatically on a typical airline flight when they are fatigued (as I'm sure you'd agree).
If mandatory fatigue testing prior to starting a duty were normal practice today....what steps would have preceeded it? ie, would BALPA and the likes have had to lobby publicly for it and been supported by the public, who would vote on it? FAA? JAA?
Warning Toxic!
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So what are these fancy fatigue tests actually going to tell you? That pilots who go to work at midnight to fly for 12 hours are knackered if they can't get any sleep before hand? Does it help to know you are starting work 60% worn out? What are you or the airline supposed to do about it? People can get rowdy in hotels and disturb sleep. Outside noise can destroy those sleep moments. Sometimes, your body won't obey instructions to 'go to sleep', until it is time to get up and work.
Rather than go down the route of telling you how tired you are, a suitable framework of work/rest limitations should be developed. Oh yes, they are changing it in Europe.......is it 14 hours is deemed suitable for 2 pilots in future? Strange when the rest of working peoples lives are based around 8 hour days!
Sorry, it helps me not a jot to know how tired I am theoretically when I have an anti-social work shift to complete- it still has to get done, so what exactly are you trying to achieve? To show I get tired? I get tired out of my mind sometimes. The job still has to get done, and done safely.
Rather than go down the route of telling you how tired you are, a suitable framework of work/rest limitations should be developed. Oh yes, they are changing it in Europe.......is it 14 hours is deemed suitable for 2 pilots in future? Strange when the rest of working peoples lives are based around 8 hour days!
Sorry, it helps me not a jot to know how tired I am theoretically when I have an anti-social work shift to complete- it still has to get done, so what exactly are you trying to achieve? To show I get tired? I get tired out of my mind sometimes. The job still has to get done, and done safely.
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We humans (Most of us Lol) are just like Cars - No Fuel/Oil - No performance!
Many (Self titled busy people) think that they can 'Cut corners' and still complete the job normally.
And don't reliase that they can one day just 'Ceize up' in their body.
I hate that word - 'Busy'
Friends/family/colleagues often say I'm sorry I haven't rung/visited or whatever but ... Iv'e been really Busy!!
It's impossible to be totally busy 24 hours a day.
Many (Self titled busy people) think that they can 'Cut corners' and still complete the job normally.
And don't reliase that they can one day just 'Ceize up' in their body.
I hate that word - 'Busy'
Friends/family/colleagues often say I'm sorry I haven't rung/visited or whatever but ... Iv'e been really Busy!!
It's impossible to be totally busy 24 hours a day.
Warning Toxic!
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What they are saying is they haven't called/visited because they have prioritised you right down the list because in their limited free time, they have other greater priority tasks to perform first than bother with you.
But they are putting it nicely.
What's that got to do with the price of bread? Are you quite with what we are talking about? And what do 'most of us lol-'about doing?
But they are putting it nicely.
What's that got to do with the price of bread? Are you quite with what we are talking about? And what do 'most of us lol-'about doing?
