CVR
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CVR
we recently had a ground incident where the emergency flotation system on a large transport helicopter was inadvertantly inflated. No harm to persons but a considerable cost to the company. The Safety and Quality people accessed the CVR to establish what had happened. Is that legal ? Can someone point me in the direction of ICAO regs or any other jurisdiction regulations which lays down when a CVR can be accessed. I know you fixed wing people have been dealing with this for many years but in the IFR offshore helicopter industry , we are about 20 years behind you so would appreciate what the current protocols are for accessing CVR's.
There is a degree of sensitivity concerning the data from both FDRs and CVRs. Accident investigators such as the NTSB & AAIB will have a policy regarding the handling and publication of the data.
Airlines with developed employer/employee relations will usually have a policy on who can access recorded data and under which circumstances, Flight Data Monitoring programmes etc.
As far as I am aware there are no hard and fast rules that stipulate when CVR recorded data can be accessed and an employer may wish to use all means available to complete an investigation into an event, including a ground occurrence such as you describe. If the CVR info is used to properly as part of an investigation to establish the cause of the ground incident and put in place error prevention strategies for the future then this will be to the benefit of all. However not all employers have this enlightened approach and may use it to support punitive actions.
I hope you have an enlightened employer!
Airlines with developed employer/employee relations will usually have a policy on who can access recorded data and under which circumstances, Flight Data Monitoring programmes etc.
As far as I am aware there are no hard and fast rules that stipulate when CVR recorded data can be accessed and an employer may wish to use all means available to complete an investigation into an event, including a ground occurrence such as you describe. If the CVR info is used to properly as part of an investigation to establish the cause of the ground incident and put in place error prevention strategies for the future then this will be to the benefit of all. However not all employers have this enlightened approach and may use it to support punitive actions.
I hope you have an enlightened employer!
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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If indeed that happened, then standard procedure must be henceforth to erase the recording at the end of every flight. CVRs were introduced on the condition that they would be used when there were no pilots left to tell the tale. However the legal profession never accepted this and have forced access. But it is not on to use them for standard investigations.
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At one time, in a small (at the time, not now, however) SE Asian airline, CVR recordings were popular fare for entertainment at the DFO's monthly cocktail party.
I know because I was there.
The erase button comes in mighty handy at times.
I know because I was there.
The erase button comes in mighty handy at times.
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Talking to an aircraft engineer some months ago at an airshow and I thought he said that in modern aircraft a certain level of incidents, when they happen, will inhibit the use of the erase function.
Warning Toxic!
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Well if that sort of thing is going to happen, I think pulling the CVR circuit breaker will trump the making the erase button ineffective trick!
CVR is there ONLY for when the pilots are not able to testify. If tricks are going to be played with it, the pilot unions will respond.
CVR is there ONLY for when the pilots are not able to testify. If tricks are going to be played with it, the pilot unions will respond.
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Sorry if this is a bone question...
Who actually "owns" the CVR recordings? At what point do they become / or are they already an item of evidence from the AAIB, NTSB etc?
Apologies to Rainboe for grammar..I have had a bottle of wine.
Who actually "owns" the CVR recordings? At what point do they become / or are they already an item of evidence from the AAIB, NTSB etc?
Apologies to Rainboe for grammar..I have had a bottle of wine.
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Rainboe...good point about the union. Unfortunately our union is at the embryonic stage hence does not yet have a mehanism in place to deal with this type of thing. I was rather hoping that ICAO may have had something definintive. I have seen some parts of ICAO Annex 13 which refers to CVR but it does so only in general terms. As said before , we are 20 years behind you guys. Was rather hoping that one of you may have some sort of written guidance either from your local regulatory authority OR your own union to which I could refer and / or peruse.
Taxying. You may find the following NTSB link useful in developing a way forward. Access To Data; Privacy, Proprietary and Union Issues
I do not agree with the premise that such data is only to be used in the event of a fatal accident. All data, including CVR data, can provide valuable information and enable error prevention strategies to be identified and adopted. But this requires management and employees to agree the rules of use and it will only work if there is a just culture within the whole organisation.
If there are no such procedures and processes within your organisation then the unfortunate event you have experienced could provide a catalyst for the organisation to develop them for the future. Effective error investigation processes have been implemented in a number of organisations in the UK and the development of these processes are encouraged by both the AAIB and CHIRP
I do not agree with the premise that such data is only to be used in the event of a fatal accident. All data, including CVR data, can provide valuable information and enable error prevention strategies to be identified and adopted. But this requires management and employees to agree the rules of use and it will only work if there is a just culture within the whole organisation.
If there are no such procedures and processes within your organisation then the unfortunate event you have experienced could provide a catalyst for the organisation to develop them for the future. Effective error investigation processes have been implemented in a number of organisations in the UK and the development of these processes are encouraged by both the AAIB and CHIRP
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Well if that sort of thing is going to happen, I think pulling the CVR circuit breaker will trump the making the erase button ineffective trick!
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Very true parabellum, but unfortunately oil companies (I'm taking a punt on taxyings type of operation) have a tendency to knee jerk responses and shoot first, and you don't need to be told who at.
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Crosswords, no, Sudoku, yes. 
With respect to the CVR my only suggestion would be to avail yourself of a good aviation legal chap familiar with the jurisdiction in which you find yourself. Seems to be a bit of a mine field.
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-3809.html
Pilots to be put in CVR Legal Jeopardy
Case Note 15972 [1998] NZPrivCmr 1 - Union complains about Transport Accident Investigation Commission disclosure of cockpit voice recording
Gary Parata's Article Page 1
A major problem with those in the helo industry is the near complete lack of industrial muscle, and even if formal agreements can be arrived at with the company, a pilot is more than likely to be facing a lone battle.
ICAO Annex 13 http://www.airsafety.com.au/trinvbil/C619icao.pdf says in part,
Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.
Note.— Information contained in the records listed above, which includes information given voluntarily by persons interviewed during the investigation of an accident or incident, could be utilized inappropriately for subsequent disciplinary, civil, administrative and criminal proceedings. If such information is distributed, it may, in the future, no longer be openly disclosed to investigators. Lack of access to such information would impede the investigation process and seriously affect flight safety.
With respect to the CVR my only suggestion would be to avail yourself of a good aviation legal chap familiar with the jurisdiction in which you find yourself. Seems to be a bit of a mine field.http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-3809.html
Pilots to be put in CVR Legal Jeopardy
Case Note 15972 [1998] NZPrivCmr 1 - Union complains about Transport Accident Investigation Commission disclosure of cockpit voice recording
Gary Parata's Article Page 1
A major problem with those in the helo industry is the near complete lack of industrial muscle, and even if formal agreements can be arrived at with the company, a pilot is more than likely to be facing a lone battle.
ICAO Annex 13 http://www.airsafety.com.au/trinvbil/C619icao.pdf says in part,
Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.
Note.— Information contained in the records listed above, which includes information given voluntarily by persons interviewed during the investigation of an accident or incident, could be utilized inappropriately for subsequent disciplinary, civil, administrative and criminal proceedings. If such information is distributed, it may, in the future, no longer be openly disclosed to investigators. Lack of access to such information would impede the investigation process and seriously affect flight safety.
Last edited by Brian Abraham; 31st Aug 2009 at 07:42.
