CRM... Are you happy?

[TheGorrilla]

I'm going to do things my way... Are you happy?

Seems to be a well used question by captains who can't be arsed to talk things through or find a better way to phase their unilateral ideas. I like it!

Are you happy if I shag your wife and steal your money?? "yes sir!.... But please don't rush the approach!"

[411A]

In this era of political and personal correctness, one thing stands out above all others....at sea, and in an airplane, the Captain calls the shots and is in complete absolute legal control, and the rest of the crew members can either like it or lump it....it makes no difference, whatsoever.

So-called CRM or not...still, no difference.

Now, having said this, said Captain should absolutely take into consideration the ideas of other crew members(as after all, they might indeed be quite good ones) but....he is under no legal obligation to do so.
Period.

Next question...?

[Rainboe]

There is a disturbing thought afoot at CRM actually means 'don't ask me to do arsy jobs please, you have to share them yourself too, and especially don't ask me to do something when I am busy please!'. There must be one boss- that is why a bad aeroplane to fly in is one with 2 Captains on board for whatever reason. Normal operations have a Captain and Copilot, not '2 pilots'. Being in command, you have the option to change the operation as you see fit to account for the operation on the day, fully expecting to have to justify that decision later to the FM. But, as a copilot, you are pretty far down the food chain, and you have a responsibility to support the Boss to your best ability, bearing in mind you may be required to account for your actions later too. For a surprising number of copilots this can be read as 'you will do it the way I see fit only'. It's a subtle difference, but when you understand properly what your task actually is, you will be a happier flyer, get on better with the boss, and you will learn more by seeing a wide spectrum of 'how to do things'. I learnt a lot by seeing different styles of operation. They are not doing it just to tick you off. Learn by it, don't just sit there with an uncooperative, resentful attitude, and you will be happier.

[BelArgUSA]

Charm School

I got hired by PanAm, and started flying as 727 F/E in 1969, well before CRM concept was ever mentioned anywhere. Back then, we had both types of captains, either nice and experienced gentlemen and scholars, or morons and other idiots or tyrants who confused PanAm jets with Boeing 314 Clipper seaplanes, and just were waiting for their turn to become accident statistic.
xxx
Besides line flying, I became an instructor at the Academy, and sometimes in about the mid-1970s, I heard about a United new training activity "CRM", also known as "ChaRM School", to teach the (aforementioned) b*stards, to behave as human beings, and F/Os or F/Es to justify no apologies when they opened their mouth if required...
xxx
Eventually, also had to become a "CRM Facilitator", with "Intial CRM", was a whole day long (8 hrs) for new hires, and a 4 hrs venue for "Recurrent CRM". Have to admit, Initial CRM was well needed for some. But fact is, many pilots were far from needing CRM, it came naturally to them. So for me, as instructor I considered Initial CRM a must, but Recurrent a waste of time. Either the "guys" practiced it properly, or will never change...
xxx
I found CRM practice an important and inherant part of simulator training, as "Crew Coordination & CRM" satisfactory/unsatisfactory for recurrent trainng. In the USA, there is no such "additional qualification" (extra revenues for FTOs) as you have with JAR Multi-Pilot MCC, a concept always included for FAA Type Rating training.
xxx
For me, CRM is a great thing, but too often a justification for F/O to question their captain's judgment. All I read in Pprune Forums nowadays, if a captain uses a different technique, it becomes "my captain deviated from our SOPs". My friends, could you please learn what an SOP deviation is, and what a technique is...?
xxx
CRM... Are you happy...? - Well, if not happy, do not fly with that captain. I do recall that there were a few F/Os that would not fly with some captains. OK, granted, if one or two... but we once had a 747 F/O who had "7 (seven) captains" (yes) on his list of "will not fly with". When we investigated the situation, we found out that the captains had a lot of problems with that particular F/O, and was witnessed by a few F/Es of that crew. I remember one captain telling me, as I asked him, he answered, "dont worry, I can fly solo"...
xxx

Happy contrails

[fireflybob]

Ok then how do you handle the FO who keeps on wanting/trying to "run the show"?

[Bob Lenahan]

Actually, UA was using CRM, and also the term, in early 1969.

[White Knight]

Easy Bob - I just tell 'em to wind their necks in... My last airline we had an F/O that many of the skippers didn't like flying with, but I told him straight - to his face - to behave and he was always as good as gold when we flew..

Captains - BE ASSERTIVE

[Guava Tree]

Funny…
When I was a first officer, if I made a complaint about a captain, or a captain made a complaint about me, then it would automatically be bad for me.
When I became a captain, the tables seemed to have been turned, and if I made a complaint about a first officer, or a first officer made a complaint about me it would automatically be bad for me.

[Rainboe]

I have to say you are exactly right, and I don't understand what changed! Somehow CRM means if something is not right, it is automatically the Captain's fault.

[Capt Claret]

Ok then how do you handle the FO who keeps on wanting/trying to "run the show"?

Some years ago I had a conversation with a Flight Ops Management type on this subject. He related a situation that he and other captains at his base had with such an F/O. Said F/O even got to the cabin crew first, and chose all the meals he wanted.

The resolution as related to me, was that all the base captains had a chat and agreed that no matter what Bloggs wanted, they would all countermand it. If Bloggs wanted to climb to a higher level, they'd descend or hold level. If Bloogs said he'd eat second, they'd make him eat first. If Bloggs said he'd have the salmon, they'd take it.

Apparently it only took 2 weeks to prevent the "running the show".

[The Real Slim Shady]

It's rather like the question at the end of briefing from the FO,

"Which sectors would you like to fly Captain?"

"Why thank you, I'll fly all of them today!"

[411A]

"Why thank you, I'll fly all of them today!"

Yup, works like a charm.

[low n' slow]

CRM is about giving pilots with good CRM skills, tools to handle pilots with poor CRM skills. It's not about changing someone into being a better person, that will never happen.

Using CRM to put blame on another colleague is like using religion as a cover for stupid personal behaviour. It just looks silly...

/LnS

[Tight Slot]

Rainboe - spot on. Fair do's for the F/O giving good feedback or I've seen this before hints (take on board info) thats what they're there for as a back up or an other opinion.

The old autograph in the tech log however means the skipper is the legal owner of the A/C and all of its pax + cargo. Buck does indead stop at the LHS. Thank god.

[archenergy]

I think it's interesting what Guava Tree wrote regarding the difference between captains and first officers complaints being taken seriously.

Perhaps from the management's point of view, if a first officer complains about a captain's behaviour they are more likely to be commended for having the thoughtfulness to do so, the tenacity and bravery to do something about it and not be a wallflower. These are admiral qualities in someone with little experience and a good sign of future strength in character for command. It also gets you noticed by management for all the right reasons, especially if it is regarding safety, and can actually help your airline career, provided of course you don't make too many complaints then you become the problem!

However, if a captain complains about a first officer's behaviour they may be derided for not having the skills themselves to deal with the individual. Surely with all the captain's experience they could have figured a way to sort it out? The first officer's behaviour can be passed off as lack of experience.

(just a thought)

[Rainboe]

Don't agree with that at all! Beware. I suspect in the main, you will be marched out of the office pronto, having almost destroyed your career! There are established procedures. Captains may not report adversely on a copilot without first discussing it with him and placing it in writing. Are you even dreaming of suggestions a 'sneak' can creep into the office and start gossiping about Captains?

Beware accepting advice from anonymous posters that may place your career on the line!