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Hand Flying vs Automatics ?

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Hand Flying vs Automatics ?

Old 10th Mar 2009, 09:53
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I can't speak for you heavy metal folks, but only as a light twin driver who has found himself on occasion squeezing in to an awkward field. Like landing to the north at my old home field Seletar in Singapore, where due to a very small zone squeezed in by the military airfield next door, a very close downwind at 1500' was followed by a constantly descending turn to the threshold at 35', I could often find myself with a high angle of bank, adding in a bit more power to help her round the corner, as a result rolling out a bit high then coming off the power to let her sink a bit faster towards the threshold in a constant attitude and then adding back a bit to cushion the descent just before flare, with the benefit that pistons and props give almost instant reaction to power changes.

As I do not fly 737, I cannot judge if there was a similar effect in action here possibly leading to the auto callouts ? while all was very well under control.

I did read somewhere, however, that passengers feel bank angles and pitch changes to be far in excess of what they are in reality with the caution that one should be careful to minimise that effect with pax on board.

My reason for posting this was due to the amount of posts I have read related to stabilised approaches, hand and auto flying to tight limits etc etc and perhaps someone could offer a factual comparison, with numbers, as to how this approach stacks up against the average stabilised approach criterea ?
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 10:08
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In Rainboe's camp on this one. All looks normal from what you can see.

Reluctant 737 - I don't mean this to sound like a personal attack or patronising, but having seen your contributions on another couple of threads you seem remarkably (over) confident and opinionated for a young man of 20 just taking the very first steps of your career.
Blimey, some people really are reliant on the autopilot aren't they
It's nice to hear your little rules. I wonder how many times you've flown through a microburst. These little nuggets are most probably things that your MCC instructor shared with you when you did your course in the last year or so....

I would consider it dangerous if the nose was pointing high above the horizon during that turn with a noticable sideslip
and so what if there was more than 30 degrees of bank? That's what was required to get the aeroplane in
This ain't a Cessna 150 old chap. Are you really a professional pilot?

Is it just me or is this website sadly going downhill..
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 12:24
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Nice Flaps,

I appreciate where you're coming from - and yes, I only have just under 800 hours on the 737, but my TT is now touching on 2,000 hours. Since the age of 12 I've been submerged in the world of general aviation, and as such have built up a sound appreciation for my career prior to entering into the jet world.

There was a lot of stir at my FTO for entering onto an integrated course with so many hours, but it felt like the right decision at the time considering where I wanted to be.

I am not over confident - I am very aware of my own limitations, but remember that 50% of my opinions on here are self formed, the other 50% are what I have learnt off others in the past 8 years being in and around aeroplanes.

Don't judge a can of beans purely on what it says on the front of the tin

p.s. No, it aint a 150, but it's still an aeroplane, operating on the same principles of physics. People rely far too much on automation, and my 800 hours thus far has seen some tiddler microbursts, plus a nasty shock flying into a reciprocal jetstream at 130 kts (nothing about that on the SWC, cheers met man). And I'll always defend we get to utilise our skills moreso than perhaps other airlines, as we route into some previously unexplored 'strips' (I hesitate to call them runways, as far as my 737 goes). Believe you me, I am a confident hands on pilot - I've put a PA28 into Lundy if that says anything!? With no damage or loss of life! Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming to be any Chuck Yeagar or Amy Johnsson, but I understand my limits and operate within them. Going back to Lundy, it took three approaches before I decided it was safe to land. If I had been overconfident, as you put it, I'd have flown the thing into the ground the first time, probably wrecked the aeroplane on the brick wall running across the field and sent the resultant debris into the sea...

I don't gamble with other peoples' lives.

Last edited by Reluctant737; 10th Mar 2009 at 12:43.
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 12:45
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Danger i don't like it

yes, i know corfu and yes, i got some thousand hours on the 737
watched it three times
don't like it
cavok, no one killed, nothing damaged? poor excuse.
audio redone? -nah, still can hear the trim wheel and the general flying noise
redone for extra exictement? - nah, there are more spectacular gpws-callouts available.
company SOPs? most likely busted. established below 500' (our OLD gate, now 1000)
futhermore coming in flat/shallow the last 200 feet (the "picture" is wrong)
and the 50-40-30-20-10 calls *seem* to come faster than they should, indicating to a high sink rate
also
the "camera nod" on touchdown more than usual in landing vids
and
check out the time counter: wings level at 12 seconds, crossing thres at roughly 23 seconds -> 11 seconds @(usually) 800-900ft/min = 155'


no objections if it had been a 172....
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 14:52
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FCS

Or, if you track your calculation back the other way and the wings were levelled at a higher altitude, then sink rate would need to increase well beyond 8-900ft/min to get down to the threshold in that time.

Even discounting the sounds, surely it has to be one or the other, doesn't it ?
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 16:52
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R737

Fair play to you, I may have been a tad harsh. Too many earlies = Mr Grumpy today...

Some of your posts just smacked slightly of someone who hasn't reached the "I've just realised how much I don't yet know" point. From my experience, a lot of people's confidence seems to grow disproportionately in the early stages of their career and then usually they reach a point (1000-3000 hours, depending on their personality and ability) where their awareness suddenly increases and their cocksureness softens a bit. After that point we tend to worry more and more about things and collect grey hairs for fun!

Regards the 150 comment, I just meant that the nose doesn't have to be
pointing high above the horizon during that turn with a noticable sideslip
for it to be unacceptable in an airline environment (not commenting on this video).

I fully agree with you, though, that there should not be an over-reliance on automatics. Hand flying skills should be just as valued now as they have ever been. I think this thread relates more to acceptable stable approach criteria and safety culture, however, than manual v automatics.
If people put themselves in a position where they need to fly like a god to land the aircraft then they have effectively removed their safety margin. Personally I quite like a safety margin, because I'm human..
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Old 10th Mar 2009, 23:31
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Hand Flying vs Automatics

Not commenting on whether the sound is genuine but the thread title "Hand Flying vs Automatics" is a good question.

As professional pilots we should be able execute a hand flown visual approach with proficiency. The trouble is some operators seem to discourage such approaches these days. When on the B 737-200 it was common to hand fly all the way to top of climb and then from top of descent to landing, if the conditions and the environment was suitable to do so. I have even flown to Tenerife and back from the UK with no autopilot because it was unserviceable!

Am I against automation? Not at all. Am I against OFDM keeping an eye on what we are doing? Once again not at all. But we have to ask the question how can we retain our basic flying skills without practice. Also in an emergency you might have to maneuvre the a/c beyond the normal "limits". I am just glad that early on in my career I flew with pilots who really could fly the a/c and were able to pass on their skills and advice so that I could also do the same. Sadly we now have a generation of pilots coming along who have not had the benefit of practising same. I believe this is not good for future flight safety.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 02:41
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I'm glad to see that there are still guys in the airlines having some fun
these days.

Last edited by beachbumflyer; 11th Mar 2009 at 03:37.
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Old 12th Mar 2009, 10:41
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Do short-haul pilots have better opportunities to maintain their hand-flying skills than long-haul pilots? I imagine with so much of the flight spent in the cruise, there is limited opportunity to fly the aircraft manually except during climb out and descent. What are your thoughts?
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Old 12th Mar 2009, 11:44
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easy equation. if your average leg is btw 0:45hr and 3:30 you'll get more T/Os and APPs/LDs than the guy with the 10hr legs. of course, before you get to (/end up ) long haulin' you do some of the "smaller stuff"
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Old 12th Mar 2009, 13:22
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I haven't seen a Corfu chart recently, but I believe the Albanian border is just to the North of Corfu and I know you have to remain "close" to the field to avoid airspace infringements.

I'm not going to judge the merits or otherwise of this guy's (or girls) approach, but could it possibly be a reason that it was kept tight and hence contributed to the outcome we see here?

<edit> Just watched it again and yes, perhaps it was a bit "spirited".

Last edited by JimbosJet; 12th Mar 2009 at 13:26. Reason: Watched the video a second time!
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Old 17th Mar 2009, 18:36
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Seletar Airport Singapore

Re your post # 21:

Not sure what you are looking for, I used Seletar airport for fourteen years, on a fairly constant basis, in a variety of piston, turboprop and business jets. Did not find too much of a problem, either landing to the north or south. A good landing is helped by a good and accurate approach.

A decending final turn to 35 feet would not have impressed myself or my VIP passengers one little bit. It would be a certain change of job!

Tmb
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Old 21st Mar 2009, 18:45
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tmb 35'is the runway threshold not wings level and indicative that 1500' needs to be lost in a tight downwind to final turn with no defined base. No surprise that while most traffic would depart in both directions jets seemed to prefer landing to the south as this would allow a straight in stable approach. As you appear to have experienced this approach in a variety of categories would you care to comment on the different stability criterea and challenges. Also which piston did you fly there and when maybe i know you?
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Old 22nd Mar 2009, 08:31
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Information requested

rmac:

I operated to and from Seletar from 1972 to 1986, using a Cessna 421 (piston), Cessna 441 (turboprop), Cessna 550 (corporate jet ) and HS125 (corporate jet).

On one occasion in the C441 I had to carry out a OEI landing to the south, I was impressed by the lack of drag during the flare and landing.

Hope this helps.

Tmb
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Old 22nd Mar 2009, 09:08
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I watch circling approaches nearly every working day in the 737 sim.

I think the video is genuine.

In my company I think the guy would probably be fired.
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Old 31st Mar 2009, 11:40
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To answer the question, learn to fly your jet manually under all conditions, then and only then should you learn to let the airplane fly you...
Ideally yes. But it will never happen apart from a few minutes per hour in the simulator. Realistically most of your waking time in the simulator and the real thing will be on automatics. Manual flying scares the beejeesus out of most captains and they prefer the warm and fuzzy comfort of laid-back knob twiddling automatics. This will not change ever.
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Old 31st Mar 2009, 21:55
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I think the crew can expect a call from the OFDM people. Airlines expect a stable approach below 500ft these days.
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