BA58L blocks taxiway at Cape Town
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BA58L blocks taxiway at Cape Town
Does anyone know why BA pushes back at Cape Town, taxis out and then requests to hold on the only taxiway to the active runways because they are "waiting for figures"?
Are they trying to push back on time when they are not fully ready or what? This occurs quite frequently and they end up blocking other aircraft that need to depart. Delays are up to 20 minutes.
Is this a BA policy?
Are they trying to push back on time when they are not fully ready or what? This occurs quite frequently and they end up blocking other aircraft that need to depart. Delays are up to 20 minutes.
Is this a BA policy?
No it's not BA policy to block taxiways ( but I can see why you might think that).
The BA policy is: Prior to doors being closed we are presented with a provisional loadsheet (roughly speaking the latest best guess) to allow us to complete the loading of our Flight Management Computers with weight info. and also to allow us to check/confirm performance calculations. The final loadsheet which reflects the actual load on board, should be then be datalinked to us shortly after pushback. We cannot takeoff until we have received these final "figures" - just in case the provisional/best guess figures were wildly wrong.
In theory
the final loadsheet should arrive very shortly after doors closed and not cause a delay.................however 
in the real world delays are not unknown and then it gets very embarrasing, especially if you are blocking the only taxiway. Fear not, it happens at places other than CPT, and it even happens to other airlines - saw three jetBlues being pulled out of line for takeoff at JFK the other day because "numbers" delays.
The BA policy is: Prior to doors being closed we are presented with a provisional loadsheet (roughly speaking the latest best guess) to allow us to complete the loading of our Flight Management Computers with weight info. and also to allow us to check/confirm performance calculations. The final loadsheet which reflects the actual load on board, should be then be datalinked to us shortly after pushback. We cannot takeoff until we have received these final "figures" - just in case the provisional/best guess figures were wildly wrong.
In theory
the final loadsheet should arrive very shortly after doors closed and not cause a delay.................however in the real world delays are not unknown and then it gets very embarrasing, especially if you are blocking the only taxiway. Fear not, it happens at places other than CPT, and it even happens to other airlines - saw three jetBlues being pulled out of line for takeoff at JFK the other day because "numbers" delays.
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I operate that route and I can assure you it's not done on purpose! Can't recall any particular problems with final loadsheet there...
All part of the game, I'm afraid, perhaps you should push back ahead of us...
Besides which we wouldn't 'request to hold' as you put it, we just wouldn't call 'ready for departure'
All part of the game, I'm afraid, perhaps you should push back ahead of us...
Besides which we wouldn't 'request to hold' as you put it, we just wouldn't call 'ready for departure'
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Last minute changes ( LMCs ) which can mean pax number changes ie no shows , VERY late loading / confirmation of Staff pax etc , if very close to MTOW , some cargo might be offloaded , literally a last minute decision as to which cargo / what it weighs etc . This might involve counting of boxes etc if cargo holds 'Bulk Out ' ie just will not fit in the hold . All this can be done while the a/c is pushing back .
I am sorry BUT it is NOT that common , and is very frustrating /embarrassing for any crew blocking taxiways etc. Its all part of airmanship , being a good neighbour . Not the crews fault if it goes wrong some days.
Lets pick on jerks who dither on runways after landing and cause go-arounds , delayed departures etc .
I am sorry BUT it is NOT that common , and is very frustrating /embarrassing for any crew blocking taxiways etc. Its all part of airmanship , being a good neighbour . Not the crews fault if it goes wrong some days.
Lets pick on jerks who dither on runways after landing and cause go-arounds , delayed departures etc .
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It's not hard - the dispatcher/turn-round co-ordinator knows the figures as soon as the doors are closed. However, BA's policy is to use a set of centralised load control centres (I think there are 5 - New York, Joburg, Hong Kong, Berlin and London) to finalise the churning of the figures the dispatcher has in their hand. This saves the expense and licensing difficulties of keeping several hundred individuals around the world (and not necessarily BA employees) up to speed on Load & Balance calculations.
It also frees up the dispatcher to concentrate on the stuff they can affect, such as pax/freight/catering/fuel loading and helps punctuality.
Of course, the downside is that the figures have to be sent from the outstations to the regional centres, and Murphy's Law being what it is, delays can occur. All it needs is the dispatcher to be stuck crossing a taxiway and unable to reach a fax/telex and the system falls down. Some stations are more prone to this than others (maybe at CPT the dispatcher has a long way to travel to send figures).
However (and it is enormously embarrassing when it happens) it doesn't happen all the time - and those stations where it does can easily be identified and (hopefully) actions taken.
Hope that clears things up.
It also frees up the dispatcher to concentrate on the stuff they can affect, such as pax/freight/catering/fuel loading and helps punctuality.
Of course, the downside is that the figures have to be sent from the outstations to the regional centres, and Murphy's Law being what it is, delays can occur. All it needs is the dispatcher to be stuck crossing a taxiway and unable to reach a fax/telex and the system falls down. Some stations are more prone to this than others (maybe at CPT the dispatcher has a long way to travel to send figures).
However (and it is enormously embarrassing when it happens) it doesn't happen all the time - and those stations where it does can easily be identified and (hopefully) actions taken.
Hope that clears things up.
I'm very aware that our "radio-loadsheet" procedures can lead to frustration for other operators, that's why I pay close attention to airfield lay-outs and other departing traffic. I've given way or delayed taxiing for just this reason innumerable times - as have many of my colleagues.
It goes wrong sometimes leading to delay for others - sorry
It goes wrong sometimes leading to delay for others - sorry
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Well said ETOPS , but sadly there are so many 'knockers' who don't care a fig about 'mistakes' and apologies from BA crew -its ALL a BIG plan by BA crew to screw everybody up !!
criss and BIGBAD are real experts.
criss and BIGBAD are real experts.
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lets face it BA do what they want and who cares about anybody else
Well.
My airline, (KLM) has centralised load planning.
And we have LMC's as well. But they never cause a blockage of a taxiway. We wait for the final figures and won't push back without them.
I would grill the BA crew ahead of me via the radio if they wouldn't be ready for departure within a minute or two.
Blimey: And BTW KLM also lands on 18R, as you very well know...you don't seriously think that thát would be normal policy in over-correct holland would you?
My airline, (KLM) has centralised load planning.
And we have LMC's as well. But they never cause a blockage of a taxiway. We wait for the final figures and won't push back without them.
I would grill the BA crew ahead of me via the radio if they wouldn't be ready for departure within a minute or two.
Blimey: And BTW KLM also lands on 18R, as you very well know...you don't seriously think that thát would be normal policy in over-correct holland would you?
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52049er
Let me guess... In the best BA traditions in order to avoid paying several hundred indivuduals (not full time, surely) you have set up 5 centrlized load control centers, spent several million (if not dozens) bucks on software and equipment, rented facilities, then suddenly realized that those 5 centres all togheter employing over a hundred full-time staff, few levels of management etc and finally the cost is actually higher than it was for local guys at the stations, but it is too late because investements are big.... And the system works not so efficiently too... Another day, same story...
However, BA's policy is to use a set of centralised load control centres (I think there are 5 - New York, Joburg, Hong Kong, Berlin and London) to finalise the churning of the figures the dispatcher has in their hand. This saves the expense and licensing difficulties of keeping several hundred individuals around the world
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Pushing back without the final figures will almost always lead to additional pressure on the crew, taxiway delays additional fuel burn etc etc in the event of incorrect or late final figures. Lets face it, if we had always had clc then many would be now saying 'This doesn't work well, lets find a better solution'.
One step forward two steps back.............
One step forward two steps back.............
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Why not continue with the present procedure at airports with more than one route out to the active, and at those where there is not, hold on stand until the figures arrive ? Or is that too simplistic ?
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We operate a CLC system, with ACARS loadsheets, but we always have a copy before push back on the flight deck, and do the LMC's the old fashioned manual way. Very rarely does it cause a delay, and keeps ATC and other carriers happy too.
IMHO, I used to be dead set against the CLC operation, but once I had become used to working with it, I realised there is an extra level of safety by using that set up, which is obviously a good thing with an extra set of eyes who also knows exactly what should be loaded and where, able to check the info on the loadsheet that the f/deck crew would never know was incorrect.
IMHO, I used to be dead set against the CLC operation, but once I had become used to working with it, I realised there is an extra level of safety by using that set up, which is obviously a good thing with an extra set of eyes who also knows exactly what should be loaded and where, able to check the info on the loadsheet that the f/deck crew would never know was incorrect.
"lets face it BA do what they want and who cares about anybody else"
Oh dear, I refer to my reply to the original post and in the meantime I am considering either:
1. Starting a thread entitled "why did JetBlue delay departures out of JFK the other day, is it company policy, I demand to know because JetBlue must have a policy on this, they obviously want to delay American, BA, Iberia " or,
2. Living with it because in aviation **** happens, even to the likes of KLM, and over the years I've learned to live with it ...
Take a depth breath people ..there, doesn't that feel better?
Oh dear, I refer to my reply to the original post and in the meantime I am considering either:
1. Starting a thread entitled "why did JetBlue delay departures out of JFK the other day, is it company policy, I demand to know because JetBlue must have a policy on this, they obviously want to delay American, BA, Iberia " or,
2. Living with it because in aviation **** happens, even to the likes of KLM, and over the years I've learned to live with it ...
Take a depth breath people ..there, doesn't that feel better?