SLF Question: Are We Safe?

[rottenray]

Folks,

I have a lot of respect for this industry, and I know that a lot of your bean-counting bosses and managers don't...

Quick question: Are we safe, would you want your children in the care of folks working in commercial transport?

[I'm sure this will get a nice range of responses, but please don't flame - this is a thought-provoker, nothing more...]

Post here, or nail me at [email protected]

Thanks!

[TopBunk]

How many flights per day? How many crashes?

Should answer your question

[rottenray]

How many flights per day? How many crashes?

Should answer your question

Well, we've weighed in with 1 bean counter / actuarial analyst response.

Topbunk, are you crew, pilot, or what?

Anyone else wanna ask me about math I can do on fingers, or can we get some real responses here?

.......

[CanadaKid]

Well that depends . . .

RR,
I was asked the same question on the afternoon of Sept 11.

How would you have answered then? How about today? How do the answers compare?

There are many, many variables that make up my decision to continue/divert or keep the brakes set, and they vary day to day.

So the easy answer is "well, that depends ..." The actions for any situation takes the collective resources of a crew's lifetime of education & experience to do the right thing, timely, and in the correct sequence.

[Walker Texas Ranger]

Well, in the US we kill about 43,000 people/year in cars. In the entire history of aviation we havent killed that many people (wish I could find the actual number)... In recent years in the US its been between 100-200 aviation fatalities a year. Keep in mind most are some rich guy with an airplane and too much money who has no business flying that kills his family...

As safe as aviation is and will always be, I do think we will see a slight increase in accidents. There is a combination of aging fleets and cost cutting along with less experienced pilots making their way into the cockpit.

[rottenray]

Canada -

So the easy answer is "well, that depends ..." The actions for any situation takes the collective resources of a crew's lifetime of education & experience to do the right thing, timely, and in the correct sequence.

Thank you so much - really - for a comforting answer.

As SLF these days, flying is a very impersonal experience. You put your ass on an aircraft which may or may not have been maintained to the maker's specs, and most of the time, you never even see the captain or first officer - they're usually already in their chairs and the cockpit door is closed.

The first time I flew commercial was on a B72-2, landing in San Diego - a rough, fast landing since there was some miscommunication between the controllers and the crew.

Even so, the crew had the time to inform us that we would be "landing real fast now," so we knew what to expect. Fast in, down hard, no hard feelings. Stuff came out of the overheads when they popped open, but it wasn't an emergency of any sort.

The lack of communication these days, combined with the fact that sometimes things REALLY go bad makes for a horrible environment.

You sort of expect something like air travel to get better, but it hasn't - it's gotten worse, at least from the perspective of knowing what's going on.

But - your reply lets me know that there are at least a few folks out there still paying attention.

///

[fc101]

Safe, in what terms? Safe from poor pilots, safe from crew, safe from other SLF, safe from mechanical failure, safe from dirty cabin air, safe from typical airline food, safe from >100ml bottles of water, safe from airport security, safe from good pilots (performing fly-bys) , safe from my captain's hallitosis, safe from Boeing rudder faults, safe from Airbus x-wind inexperience, safe from Brazillian aircraft safe from Canadian aircraft etc?

If flying worries you, don't leave your house, don't cross the road, don't get out of bed etc etc (although all these have their own problems....)

fc101
E145 driver

[212man]

You need to define 'Safe'.

Life itself is pretty dangerous, and has a 100% chance of resulting in death, so how do you determine what's safe or not?

Personally, I think it's a question of risk assessment and qualified judgements. I will never fly with certain airlines and will always choose others. More than that, other than go by boat or train, that's all I can do to try and assure my safety.

[TopBunk]

RR

Topbunk, are you crew, pilot, or what?

If you looked at my profile you might find the answer.

[Avman]

There's no doubt in my mind that flying is safer than driving etc. However, as one in the industry, I too am just a little concerned at the level of experience in the F/D of some a/c today. There has in recent years been a fairly rapid expansion of the world's commercial aircraft population and pilots to crew them. We are presently in what I would consider a transition period where there are perhaps more inexperienced (total hours) pilots than average. It is not uncommon to see both Captain and F/O on an a/c to have relatively low hours of experience in their respective positions. Add the commercial pressures they are subjected to these days and it becomes a worrying scenario. Admitedly in the majority of cases this is compensated with good training and good company SOPs. There's no doubt flying is still by far the safest form of transport and safer than crossing the road, but I would say that it may just be a little less so than usual whilst the new generation of pilots acquire their hours. Does all this make sense? Probably not, but it's still too early for me

[usedtofly]

As a pilot I feel safer in an aeroplane than in a car

However, if you are worried then perhaps it would be best NOT to fly!

Just a thought

UTF

[El Grifo]

Can't say whether it is safe or not, but with absolute certainty and conviction I can say that it has spiralled very quickly downmarket in the last few years.

What used to be a pleasurable experience has now turned into a low life chore.

I have flown everything to first class in Emirates (excellent) to cattle class in Easy Jet. At least with Easy jet I got pretty much what I paid for.

Qatar was lousy, BA was lazy, Virgin was pretty good, Europa was OK, Iberia was OK, Lufthansa was passable, Thai was passable, Jet was interesting, Cubana actually had cockroaches on board, the list goes on and on.

Point is most of these airlines used to take pride in their service, now we really are just SLF

I used to enjoy the SLF part of my work, but nowadays I would rather take a bus.

Air Travel, a steep fall from grace.

[Pilot Pete]

Are we safe?

Yes.

would you want your children in the care of folks working in commercial transport?

Depends what part of the world, but here in the UK, most definitely yes, same would apply for the US in my opinion. By commercial transport I assume you are referring to commercial aviation? There are differences in safety in some parts of the world.

a rough, fast landing since there was some miscommunication between the controllers and the crew.

What? What is a 'rough fast landing'?

Even so, the crew had the time to inform us that we would be "landing real fast now," so we knew what to expect. Fast in, down hard, no hard feelings. Stuff came out of the overheads when they popped open, but it wasn't an emergency of any sort.

And you are citing this as a GOOD example of how things used to be? Where would you like me to start....... Put it this way, if there was a miscommunication between me and a controller I would have spent time sorting out the miscommunication and then performing a normal landing rather than informing the passengers that I was about to make a (reckless) landing that would be 'nothing to worry about'.

The lack of communication these days

Again, that is a bit of a mass generalisation. I recently had a tech problem that required a return to stand and I faced the passengers in the main cabin, made a PA explaining what the problem was, said I would speak to them again in 20 minutes (to the second) with an update and then walked along the isle answering any questions they had/ calming any fears. In the end we took a 3hr delay, but they were ALL happy because I was honest, explained in simple language what the problem was, what I and my company were doing about it and thanked them for trusting my judgement which is what they had paid the price of their ticket for. When they disembarked at destination I got several waves and thumbs up as they passed my side window. So, don't assume that because you had one bad experience everyone is the same.

combined with the fact that sometimes things REALLY go bad makes for a horrible environment.

That's called 'The World'. Life is rarely perfect and risk free and horrible things happen all over the world every minute of every day. If you look at the statistics you are much less likely to be on the receiving end of something horrible when on a commercial aircraft than you are walking across the road outside your house. If you don't like flying because of irrational fear, seek some help or don't fly. It is all about YOU doing something about YOUR perceived fear, you need to WANT to change it for anything to change. On this occasion the statistics don't lie; commercial aviation in the western world is by far the safest form of public transport.

You sort of expect something like air travel to get better, but it hasn't - it's gotten worse, at least from the perspective of knowing what's going on.

What's going on when? During an emergency? During a normal flight? During a delay? During a normal flight the passengers in general want to know who we are up front, what time we will be departing, what time we anticipate arriving at destination and some like to know how high we are and where we are occasionally whilst we are flying along. Other than that they want me to shut up so that they can enjoy the movie. You need to explain you comment further to get any more indepth response.

But - your reply lets me know that there are at least a few folks out there still paying attention.

If you want to patronise then you will get very little further response from people who may be in a position to offer informed comment.

PP

[Load Toad]

When you get in a car - are you safe?
When you go to the kitchen or bathroom - are you safe?
When you go to hospital - are you safe?
When you walk down a street - are you safe?
When you argue with a spouse - are you safe?
When you are in a bar - are you safe?
When you swim in a hotel pool - are you safe?

How much fear do you want in your life?

[glad rag]

How much fear do you want in your life?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMJEwBXXbr8

[El Grifo]

Again, that is a bit of a mass generalisation. I recently had a tech problem that required a return to stand and I faced the passengers in the main cabin, made a PA explaining what the problem was, said I would speak to them again in 20 minutes (to the second) with an update and then walked along the isle answering any questions they had/ calming any fears. In the end we took a 3hr delay, but they were ALL happy because I was honest, explained in simple language what the problem was, what I and my company were doing about it and thanked them for trusting my judgement which is what they had paid the price of their ticket for. When they disembarked at destination I got several waves and thumbs up as they passed my side window. So, don't assume that because you had one bad experience everyone is the same.

A mass generalisation indeed.

Whilst you are to be commended for your open-ness and honesty to the passengers, in the other 99.99% of cases, the single biggest complaint is the misleading or total lack of information when a delay is experienced.

In many cases the representatives are told to lie.

[llondel]

As a general guide, there are airlines where I'm happy to entrust my family to their care, there are others that I wouldn't (a current example of that being Adam Air). The former category has had the occasional cock-up or bomb, but as a percentage of people carried it's an adequately-low risk.

Do you trust your driving sufficiently to risk carrying your children in the car? You're far more likely to have a fatal/serious accident driving to/from the airport than you are on the aircraft. That's probably even true with some of the dodgy carriers, given the driving conditions around their operating airports.

I take the same approach as Topbunk's initial response and I'm definitely not a beancounter.

[El Grifo]

Point I am trying to make is that if "front of house" is showing a big drop in standards, what is going on "back of house"

[loubylou]

Rotten - what is it you want to know exactly when you say there is a lack of comms?

The "rough " landing due to lack of comms between ATC and the flightdeck - who told you that that was what the issue was? If there were items being flung out of the overhead lockers - then that sounds rather more than a normal but bumpy landing.

Try to bear in mind that there are 2 pilots at the pointy end - both of whom have a healthy desire to fly and land safely at the end of a shift, and are not going to fly an aircraft if it unsafe to do so.

Sometimes things go wrong ( as indeed they can with your car/bus/train/legs), and because flying, unlike driving/walking etc, is something that the general public don't know much about , it is sensationalised by journalists. If you are on a train - how much do you want to be told by the driver?

I have no problems with folk asking sensible questions - but I frankly find your questions and statements both bizarre and pointless.
It sounds like you are a bit of a control freak ; not being in control and not understanding about flying and what is going on seems to be your main issue here, not whether flying is safe or not.
Why don't you go on one of these fear of flying courses to set your mind at rest?
Best of luck

louby

[Pilot Pete]

El Grifo

in the other 99.99% of cases, the single biggest complaint is the misleading or total lack of information when a delay is experienced.

Talk facts please. Your percentage is a figure you have plucked out of the air to try to back up your statement. I doubt very much if it is any where near that percentage of delays that get complaints about lack of communication. What evidence can you quote to back this figure up and give it any credibility? Many airlines understand the point you are making and actively encourage timely and accurate information to their passengers during a delay. Remember, if you want their repeat business you have to treat them properly. This does not mean you have to go into technical details which may not be understood by some/ many passengers, or may even scare them, so your impression that you are not being told the truth may just be that you are not being availed of everything that the crew knows. Perfectly reasonable and a judgement call that we are paid to make. If something has broken that means the aircraft is not safe to fly, I will tell the passengers this and re-assure them about the part being replaced and the aircraft being put back into a condition that I am happy to take flying. It aint rocket science and I cannot think why you would need to lie unless you work for an absolute cowboy airline where you are trying to hide everything about your operation.

In many cases the representatives are told to lie

I don't know any of my pilot acquaintances across many airlines in my country and abroad who are given such guidance. Please give us details of such airlines, or, as I suspect, is it just your opinion that they are told to lie?

Point I am trying to make is that if "front of house" is showing a big drop in standards

You reckon? Where's your evidence of this? Fact is, flying is safer now than it has ever been. Show us the evidence of the drop in standards as it is not my impression here in the UK and the rest of the developed world. You actually say a "big drop in standards", I reckon you are wildly speculating. Once again, give us the evidence, find statistics from any regulatory authority that demonstrate your opinion, as I think you will not be able to find any such evidence. Otherwise, retract your speculation or place a caveat in your post which acknowledges that you don't know what you are typing to be true and state that it is just speculation.

PP