Tankering.
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Tankering.
Please forgive me for entering this hallowed site of A.T.P.L.
I am just a humble wannabe but please give me some credit for passing the dreaded ground school.
During this time a thought crossed my mind regarding tankering, saving the planet etc. Stay with me and remember how messed up your brain was during the dark times of study.
Tankering happens as far as I know due to the cost of fuel at the destination, accounts and discounts at the base airport.
I had an idea, and please remember the state of mind at the time, ( they could have legally sectioned me I'm sure) what if within the European Union,
the price of fuel was set by brussels every month or every week and each airport had to charge the same. Would this not reduce the amount of tankering dramatically?
I have flown as cabin crew for 11 years so have chatted with pilots about this. There is the problem of islands having higher cost to get the fuel out to them in the first place and I'm sure there are many other problems which is why I wish to throw it to you chaps (and chapesses of course. I knew that crm would come in handy one day.)
I am just a humble wannabe but please give me some credit for passing the dreaded ground school.
During this time a thought crossed my mind regarding tankering, saving the planet etc. Stay with me and remember how messed up your brain was during the dark times of study.
Tankering happens as far as I know due to the cost of fuel at the destination, accounts and discounts at the base airport.
I had an idea, and please remember the state of mind at the time, ( they could have legally sectioned me I'm sure) what if within the European Union,
the price of fuel was set by brussels every month or every week and each airport had to charge the same. Would this not reduce the amount of tankering dramatically?
I have flown as cabin crew for 11 years so have chatted with pilots about this. There is the problem of islands having higher cost to get the fuel out to them in the first place and I'm sure there are many other problems which is why I wish to throw it to you chaps (and chapesses of course. I knew that crm would come in handy one day.)
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[QUOTE=The Lead Sparrow;2922275]
the price of fuel was set by brussels every month or every week and each airport had to charge the same. Would this not reduce the amount of tankering dramatically?
Failed politicians and their bureaucrats setting prices? God forbid! Leave it to the market.
the price of fuel was set by brussels every month or every week and each airport had to charge the same. Would this not reduce the amount of tankering dramatically?
Failed politicians and their bureaucrats setting prices? God forbid! Leave it to the market.
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Each fuel supplier at each airport sets it own price. This will vary by customer, contract, time of day, amount of uplift etc... Our friends in Brussels have Austrians sitting on the fisheries committee (I have nothing against Austrians, just that they don't have much of a coastline) so what chance would aviation have against these clowns? Allow these international w
rs to piss away our tax money shuttling between Brussels and Strasbourg but don't let them do anything! We couldn't afford it.
rs to piss away our tax money shuttling between Brussels and Strasbourg but don't let them do anything! We couldn't afford it.
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I expected a little anti european response but please keep the politics out of it. This is a genuine thought with regards to saving thousands of tons of carbon pollution from entering the atmosphere.
If it could be made to work it could make a dramatic difference to pollution within the European Union.
I am just a humble wannabe which is why I am asking for sensible comment from profesionals on whether its possible.
If it could be made to work it could make a dramatic difference to pollution within the European Union.
I am just a humble wannabe which is why I am asking for sensible comment from profesionals on whether its possible.
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Maybe the anti-Brussels feelings are there because everything in our industry that has been "harmonised" by the EU now requires four times the paperwork and costs twice as much as it did before - so the chances of them efficiently organising anything like that on any kind of equitable basis are nil
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Tankering does go on, of course, where the price differental is significant.
Say, for example 38 US cents/US gallon versus $2/US gallon (one of the more pristine examples I have run accross in the last year or so), but many larger airlines buy their fuel in bulk lots, through a fuel distributor (World Fuel in Miami, for example) and pay a set price at most outstations, with only a flowage fee being charged at the outstation.
How large a bulk lot?
It varies, of course, but 10 million gallons is common.
The largest I have seen is 200 million gallons, which was spoken for recently, but not all to one airline.
Say, for example 38 US cents/US gallon versus $2/US gallon (one of the more pristine examples I have run accross in the last year or so), but many larger airlines buy their fuel in bulk lots, through a fuel distributor (World Fuel in Miami, for example) and pay a set price at most outstations, with only a flowage fee being charged at the outstation.
How large a bulk lot?
It varies, of course, but 10 million gallons is common.
The largest I have seen is 200 million gallons, which was spoken for recently, but not all to one airline.
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Definitely not, as if market economics were disregarded, not only might supply problems creep up when companies are no longer prepared to supply at that price, but the market works itself to hinder excess usage, simply worked into the cost of the asset.
Taxation, carbon emission auctions and carbon trading are the only efficient way to keep the market moving effectively, else you will create mega problems that cannot be solved by a blanket price.
Just don't give out carbin emission rights for free like the idiots did for the power industry...auctioning so companies pay for what they want to burn is the right way to do it.
PS - the EU works very well at eliminating national paperwork, so you can (in theory) operate anywhere. Its intentions are very good, even if not working well in reality!
Taxation, carbon emission auctions and carbon trading are the only efficient way to keep the market moving effectively, else you will create mega problems that cannot be solved by a blanket price.
Just don't give out carbin emission rights for free like the idiots did for the power industry...auctioning so companies pay for what they want to burn is the right way to do it.
PS - the EU works very well at eliminating national paperwork, so you can (in theory) operate anywhere. Its intentions are very good, even if not working well in reality!
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Sorry to ask a slight side question 'The Lead Sparrow,' hope you don't mind. Do the fuel tankering charts take into account just the extra fuel burnt in transporting or do they take into account all the factors??
Quote the A320 FCOM: "The computed optimum takeoff weight is based on the additional fuel consumption needed for the transport of the extra (tankered) fuel and it is the weight at which optimum profit can be achieved."
Other factors obviously include extra brake/engine/tire wear and not just extra fuel burn. Any ideas?
Quote the A320 FCOM: "The computed optimum takeoff weight is based on the additional fuel consumption needed for the transport of the extra (tankered) fuel and it is the weight at which optimum profit can be achieved."
Other factors obviously include extra brake/engine/tire wear and not just extra fuel burn. Any ideas?
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I have no idea I'm afraid, Tom 775257. Why do you ask?
I am pleased this debate has moved away from the politics though.
I just had a simply thought, what if you could do away with all tankering within Europe?
Some experts are talking about we only have ten years left before we do ireversably damage to the planet. (please no comments on how true this is.)
Thousands of tons of fuel are burnt every year for no other reason than a monetary gain, surely there must be a better way.
I have limited brain cells left after burning so many out in ground school which is why I have thrown the question open to the pilot world.
I am not bold enough to suggest the idea could or couldn't work but I think it's worth debating.
Carry on..............
I am pleased this debate has moved away from the politics though.
I just had a simply thought, what if you could do away with all tankering within Europe?
Some experts are talking about we only have ten years left before we do ireversably damage to the planet. (please no comments on how true this is.)
Thousands of tons of fuel are burnt every year for no other reason than a monetary gain, surely there must be a better way.
I have limited brain cells left after burning so many out in ground school which is why I have thrown the question open to the pilot world.
I am not bold enough to suggest the idea could or couldn't work but I think it's worth debating.
Carry on..............
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I agree with Mutt. If constructed correctly, your tankering calculations will also take account of wear and tear etc..
An airline I worked with 5 years ago also applied an environmental premium to the tankering calculation. i.e. although it was commercially desirable to tanker on a city pair, they would add another 5% to the costings before they would tanker.
Another point. Many tankering destinations are isolated (high cost of getting fuel there). If airlines were not tankering into these places, locals would have to import and store larger volumes of fuel. Which in itself may increase the odds of a spill/accident etc..
An airline I worked with 5 years ago also applied an environmental premium to the tankering calculation. i.e. although it was commercially desirable to tanker on a city pair, they would add another 5% to the costings before they would tanker.
Another point. Many tankering destinations are isolated (high cost of getting fuel there). If airlines were not tankering into these places, locals would have to import and store larger volumes of fuel. Which in itself may increase the odds of a spill/accident etc..
