Why do I have to say "heavy"??
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
Very relevant in the RVSM world if your flying something smaller than the whale. I don't care what documents say what, 1000 ft below a heavy and you stand a chance of a wake encounter. I know from recent experience.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: US
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For what it's worth; we pilots in the US will say "heavy" when we are below FL180 and when above usually do not. some do, most do not. Like it has been said,not really necessary. A lot of times our flight number is known by the controllers to be a heavy aircraft but is substituted for a nonheavy. It's just the way it works here.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm just SLF, but a number of "heavy" pilots as well as non-widebody pilots have admitted/suggested to me that the insistence on appending "heavy" on every transmission is more ego than anything else.
"I'm flying a widebody, with everything that entails, and you're not. And I will remind you of that not just when I check in, but every time I ask for a ride report, too."
Greg
"I'm flying a widebody, with everything that entails, and you're not. And I will remind you of that not just when I check in, but every time I ask for a ride report, too."
Greg
"But how did the "heavy" call sign help you exactly in that special situation?"
"Traffic 12 o'clock 5 miles opposite course a thousand above, a heavy 747"
My policy after getting rocked is to look at the winds and ask for an offset to the upwind side. I might not for what ever reason catch the type, but I'm tuned for the term heavy.
"Traffic 12 o'clock 5 miles opposite course a thousand above, a heavy 747"
My policy after getting rocked is to look at the winds and ask for an offset to the upwind side. I might not for what ever reason catch the type, but I'm tuned for the term heavy.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Florida, USA
Age: 83
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Courtesy
All legalities aside, isn't declaring "heavy" a courtesy thing? Whether you're at 410 or on approach, the other guys on the radio appreciate knowing who is sharing the sky. Is it so hard to make an extra effort be courteous for your brother aviator?
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The land of ice and snow
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's so that I don't come truckin' in for a landing right behind you in my little Cessna 150 and get tossed upside-down by your wake turbulence...
But then again, maybe I should be paying attention. I'm from Canada and I can't imagine ever running into this problem as long as I pay attention to what's going on around me, like pilots are supposed to do!
But then again, maybe I should be paying attention. I'm from Canada and I can't imagine ever running into this problem as long as I pay attention to what's going on around me, like pilots are supposed to do!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
"You do not use "Heavy" in the enroute phase of flight"
Reference please.
Reference please.
2-4-14. WORDS AND PHRASES
Use the words or phrases in radiotelephone and
interphone communication as contained in the
Pilot/Controller Glossary. The word “heavy” shall be
used as part of the identification of heavy jet aircraft as
follows:
TERMINAL: In all communications with or about
heavy jet aircraft.
ENROUTE: The use of the word heavy may be omitted
except as follows:
a. In communications with a terminal facility about
heavy jet operations.
b. In communications with or about heavy jet aircraft
with regard to an airport where the en route center is
providing approach control service.
c. In communications with or about heavy jet aircraft
when the separation from a following aircraft may
become less than 5 miles by approved procedure.
d. When issuing traffic advisories.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is true.
It is also usually in the FOM of the company you work for if they have 'Heavys' in their fleet. I have worked for 4 airlines that have the B747 (and have flown it for three of them) and they all had this in their FOM. It is really pretty standard.
You don't have to do it of course. It is just SOP.
It is also usually in the FOM of the company you work for if they have 'Heavys' in their fleet. I have worked for 4 airlines that have the B747 (and have flown it for three of them) and they all had this in their FOM. It is really pretty standard.
You don't have to do it of course. It is just SOP.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Charly
Hi KingAir77,
it absolutly makes sence in the Approach phase of a flight. Often you hear the Tower controller advising you that the "preceeding is a heavy one", and it helps!
But why do I have to tell for example Salt Lake Centre (Upper airspace) every single transmission in cruise flght(!) that i'm heavy?
it absolutly makes sence in the Approach phase of a flight. Often you hear the Tower controller advising you that the "preceeding is a heavy one", and it helps!
But why do I have to tell for example Salt Lake Centre (Upper airspace) every single transmission in cruise flght(!) that i'm heavy?
On initial contact with ground you advise him that you're a heavy (certified 300,000lbs or more - 90 metric tonnes). "Kennedy ground, Connielingus 24 heavy taxi." Tower/departure/approach use "heavy" on all radio calls. In the U.S. enroute controls centers don't need, or use, "heavy" in the call sign.
757 is not a "heavy". It does have it's own wake turbulence seperation. Flipped a Westwind on it's back going into SNA (Santa Ana, Orange County, CA-about an hour's drive south of LAX). Research into the accident found out that the wake turbulence for the 757 is much greater than expected for the size/weight of the a/c. As far as I know the exact reason isn't know but they believe it has to do with the continous flap design(fuselage to aileron) of the 757.
Another part of the problem is the 757 is very slick. You tend to get 'stuck' at 170-180 kts needed more flaps to slow while descending on the G/S. Even with gear it's often a waiting game to slow below 162 kts to get final flaps out. Both of those issues sometimes mean leveling off to reduce airspeed. That causes us to go above G/S. The Kahoe 4 Arrival in SNA keeps you high. So we're constantly above the G/S going into SNA trying to slow down and configure.
I'm just surprised we havn't killed any SEL departing off the parallel runway that is typically slightly downwind of our departure path. Due to noise abatement the 757 typically is climbing at 22-23 degrees pitch to 800'. No SEL a/c can match that. IMO it's just a matter of time before more die there.
"I'm just surprised we havn't killed any SEL departing off the parallel runway that is typically slightly downwind of our departure path"
Indeed there have been a number of cases of GA SEL crashing on the parallel (19L) at SNA.
Indeed there have been a number of cases of GA SEL crashing on the parallel (19L) at SNA.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: USA
Age: 67
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
"You do not use "Heavy" in the enroute phase of flight"
Reference please.
Reference please.
In the U.S., the word “heavy” is used in all communications with or about heavy jet aircraft in the terminal environment. In the en route environment, “heavy” is used in all communications with or about heavy jet aircraft with a terminal facility, when the en route center is providing approach control service, when the separation from a following aircraft may become less than five miles by approved procedure, and when issuing traffic advisories.
Of course we yanks love to contradict ourselves, AIP again:
29.8.4 For operations conducted behind heavy
aircraft, ATC will specify the word “heavy” when this
information is known. Pilots of heavy aircraft should
always use the word “heavy” in radio communications.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: USA
Age: 67
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by misd-agin
On initial contact with ground you advise him that you're a heavy (certified 300,000lbs or more - 90 metric tonnes).
Join Date: May 2006
Location: USA
Age: 67
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bubbers44
I always thought heavy reminded the controller of the additional spacing required for wake turbulence behind him, 5 vs 4 or 3 miles for spacing for landing especially.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
"But why do I have to tell for example Salt Lake Centre (Upper airspace) every single transmission in cruise flght(!) that i'm heavy?"
Very relevant in the RVSM world if your flying something smaller than the whale. I don't care what documents say what, 1000 ft below a heavy and you stand a chance of a wake encounter. I know from recent experience.
Very relevant in the RVSM world if your flying something smaller than the whale. I don't care what documents say what, 1000 ft below a heavy and you stand a chance of a wake encounter. I know from recent experience.
I dont know... heavy here and heavy there... people stop taking notice when its heavy all the time and really when you are passing below someone most of the time you have no clue who it is even if said airplane calls heavy every other second.
It common knowledge that even a medium can create problems if you pass thru his wake at higher levels... so imho the heavy call can go.
duece
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cawood, Nr Selby, N Yorkshire
Age: 38
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am currently doing my ATPL theory with BristolGS and came accross this in the communications section, hope it helps.
'Aircraft in the heavy wake turbulence category include the word "HEAVY" immediately after the aircraft call sign in the initial call to the aerodrome control tower and the approach control unit, FASTAIR 324 HEAVY.'
'Aircraft in the heavy wake turbulence category include the word "HEAVY" immediately after the aircraft call sign in the initial call to the aerodrome control tower and the approach control unit, FASTAIR 324 HEAVY.'
