737-200 banked 87 deg?
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Can somebody confirm or deny a rumour I heard of an incident in Italy recently where a 737-200 banked 87 deg.
I didn't think this was possible.
Was this fatigue or how did it happen (if it did). Didn't see it in the papers.
I didn't think this was possible.
Was this fatigue or how did it happen (if it did). Didn't see it in the papers.
737 Bank Angle
I suspect this is rumour rather than news and something so extreme would surely have become common knowledge by now and would presumeably have been an upset caused by extreme weather.
From a technical pont of view I wouldn't see why this should not be perfectly possible and if handled smoothly should have no adverse impact on the aeroplane - other than the mess that would have to be cleaned up from the pax !!!
I have seen video of the original 707 - the venerable Dash 80 - being put through a compete barrel role during one demonstration flight some decades ago.
I understand that the test pilot flying was quietly taken to one side and asked to refrain from further performances.
DGG
From a technical pont of view I wouldn't see why this should not be perfectly possible and if handled smoothly should have no adverse impact on the aeroplane - other than the mess that would have to be cleaned up from the pax !!!
I have seen video of the original 707 - the venerable Dash 80 - being put through a compete barrel role during one demonstration flight some decades ago.
I understand that the test pilot flying was quietly taken to one side and asked to refrain from further performances.
DGG
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Tex Johnston rolled the 707 nice pic of it open link & scroll down
http://www.707sim.com/texjohnston.html
http://www.707sim.com/texjohnston.html
Tex Johnson
I couldn't remember Tex Johnson's name so thanks for the help Ranger 1 ... but note from the link, GP, that Tex apparently did roll it twice .. so you could just be correct..
I think the complete video - together with the comment about not doing it again on demo flights to prospective customers - was shown on a BBC series called "Reaching for the Skies" about 10 years ago. I certainly remember one sequence in the programme was of an Aero Commander being barrel rolled, while two USAF Generals in the back poured a cup of tea as the horizon slowly spun round, demonstating that there was positive G all the way round.
Sorry about the total thread hijack.
DGG
I think the complete video - together with the comment about not doing it again on demo flights to prospective customers - was shown on a BBC series called "Reaching for the Skies" about 10 years ago. I certainly remember one sequence in the programme was of an Aero Commander being barrel rolled, while two USAF Generals in the back poured a cup of tea as the horizon slowly spun round, demonstating that there was positive G all the way round.
Sorry about the total thread hijack.
DGG
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Doesn't make much difference but believe it was an 800,no doubt the full details will become public (like the Skavsta incident) once the IAA have investigated/unless the pilots were fatigued,in which case it will be OK for RYR to investigate and deal with it. . . Ha, Ha! Capt in Skavsta (if we recall) claims part of the reason he cocked-up was fatigue/stress,if you try and tell them you are fatigued,you get demoted. . . shome mishtake shurely.
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Tex johnson & BAnk 87 deg
Well If you look under aviationvideos.com there is the full 707 barrel role with a comment form Tex Johson
cooooollll.....
Who was the guy who preformen barrel roles with a glas of water on the glare shield, with out spilling a drop??? Impressiv video!Was that also Tex j. or bob hoover???
Can you bank a airliner more then 78 deg in a cordinated turn (+2,5g)???With out causing excessiv stress to the airframe?
Cheers Micky
Ps keep on rolling...
cooooollll.....Who was the guy who preformen barrel roles with a glas of water on the glare shield, with out spilling a drop??? Impressiv video!Was that also Tex j. or bob hoover???
Can you bank a airliner more then 78 deg in a cordinated turn (+2,5g)???With out causing excessiv stress to the airframe?
Cheers Micky
Ps keep on rolling...
...there is some horrific footage out on the WWW somewhere of the results when a retiring B52 driver tried to pull a high AoB, low alt stunt at an airshow in the US.
High AoB, lowish speed, got the nose below the horizon, but not enough sky to recover
Sickening viewing
High AoB, lowish speed, got the nose below the horizon, but not enough sky to recover
Sickening viewing
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Bob Hoover can be seen pouring from a pitcher of iced tea into a glass set upon the glare shield while barrel-rolling a Rockwell Shrike ( a jazzed-up Aero Commander 500). This comes with a 'Warning! Kids! Don't try this at home!' label attached.
Some guys in Nigeria got a 727 over so far, perhaps not watching what they were doing while avoiding traffic, that they went in from something like 15 thousand feet in less time than it takes to tell about it. It would seem that some large transport-category aircraft can be unrecoverable from relatively modest attitudes. The author of 'Handling the Big Jets' goes into this in some detail.
Some guys in Nigeria got a 727 over so far, perhaps not watching what they were doing while avoiding traffic, that they went in from something like 15 thousand feet in less time than it takes to tell about it. It would seem that some large transport-category aircraft can be unrecoverable from relatively modest attitudes. The author of 'Handling the Big Jets' goes into this in some detail.
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The COPA 737 which crashed 6/6/92 is believed to have rolled past 90deg and back several times before departing controlled flight. At a slow roll rate, it probably never execeeded 1g and hence the crew was unaware anything was amiss.
Now there was an incident with a 737 in Europe, where during the cruise the crew forgot that they were fuel balancing – cross feed open.
At the next leg-change the autopilot (LNAV) had difficulty in completing the turn due to the significant control force offset previously used to hold the wings level.
The crew disconnected the autopilot, anticipating a balanced lateral control force, it was not.
The aircraft rolled beyond 87 deg before a recovery was made.
Also, as another scenario, consider ‘what if’ - a slat fails to retract during departure; the autopilot has difficulty in responding. The crew take over and fly manually, but are confused by the asymmetric control forces / offset stick position; their actions are transferred by illusion/error into the pitch control. The aircraft rolls and pulls into a tight turn at low level. (Flash?)
Try the scenarios above in the simulator; learn about ‘force’ illusions, the differences in stick / wheel position vs zero force position and how we often assume a constant relationship between them. Incorrect trim either due to trim input or external trim force can be a killer particularly in roll.
But of course pitch trim can lead to similar problems. An A310 crew overpowered the autopilot during a go around. The auto trim opposed the stick force and applied full nose up trim, the aircraft ‘stalled’ twice with 90 deg wing drop before recovering. (N.B. all aircraft should now be modified to prevent this happening again)
A310
At the next leg-change the autopilot (LNAV) had difficulty in completing the turn due to the significant control force offset previously used to hold the wings level.
The crew disconnected the autopilot, anticipating a balanced lateral control force, it was not.
The aircraft rolled beyond 87 deg before a recovery was made.
Also, as another scenario, consider ‘what if’ - a slat fails to retract during departure; the autopilot has difficulty in responding. The crew take over and fly manually, but are confused by the asymmetric control forces / offset stick position; their actions are transferred by illusion/error into the pitch control. The aircraft rolls and pulls into a tight turn at low level. (Flash?)
Try the scenarios above in the simulator; learn about ‘force’ illusions, the differences in stick / wheel position vs zero force position and how we often assume a constant relationship between them. Incorrect trim either due to trim input or external trim force can be a killer particularly in roll.
But of course pitch trim can lead to similar problems. An A310 crew overpowered the autopilot during a go around. The auto trim opposed the stick force and applied full nose up trim, the aircraft ‘stalled’ twice with 90 deg wing drop before recovering. (N.B. all aircraft should now be modified to prevent this happening again)
A310
Last edited by alf5071h; 7th Nov 2005 at 22:27.
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The A-310 video , I believe is from Interflug in Moscow quite a few years back and they didn't show all of it because if I remember correctly, it pitches up like that twice more.