There is nothing more ANNOYING!!
 

As a GCSE pupil just about to sit his exams, I am yet again confronted with the choice of a lifetime. Do I a) be obstinate or b) negotiate.

I was told that for you a-levels you can do anything you want!! (YEAH) so I chose something along the lines of Geography, Maths, Physics and Theatre Studies. Of ourse, the problem came about when I was told that I can in no way take those to be my subjects. (where has the freedom of choice gone I wonder) So after what seemed like ages of mumbling and groaning, I had made my other choice.

Geography, Math, Theatre Studies and Technology.

Having a Careers advisor really mucks things up. I have now been told, "You cannot do that either because you will need the Physics to be able to do Aeronautical Engineering. DO PHYSICS!!" Pardon???

I happen to know that there are many universities that accept Technology as a lab based subject which is in effect what they're looking for (a lab based subject). Therefore I again put forward this...alteration, and was again shot down...DO PHYSICS!!! As if!!

(Why me?) Anyway, that is my problem. I know there is an easy way of doing this. There is NO WAY in the world that I will not be doing Theatre Studies next year! And guess what, that's where the clash is because t/s and physics are in the same block and so run at the same time. Of course I cannot be in two places at once. (D'uh)

There is nothing more ANNOYING!!

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FlyFreeWbe
~WYSITWIRL

Hello,

Theatre studies versus physics.

Let me think!!!!!

If you are seriously considering a career in aviation forget theatre studies; about as much use to you as empty fuel tanks at 5000ft.

I remember when I had to choose my GCSE's, many years ago, I wanted to do photography and they said no - thank god for that one!

Maths and physics together is a hard combination (I know because I did it!) - but take it from me - when interviewers see you have done this combination they will be impressed.

PFO

I agree, do Physics. Its just practical maths at the end of the day and it will help put into perspective the trig and algebra etc that you will cover in Maths.

Good luck whatever you choose

OTB

FFW,

Have to agree with PFO on this one! If you are serious about aviation, ditch Theatre Studies (or something else) and take Physics. A lot of people have to make a lot of sacrifices in this industry, and having to do Physics would only be a small one!

Even more so if you want to do a science based degree. I have not heard of any reputable Uni accepting Technology as a lab based course in lieu of physics or maths!

Then again, there are those who will argue that it is important to maintain a balance of subjects. Personally, if you are serious about flying, I wouldn't even consider not doing physics.

All the best with your aspirations,

Cuban_8

Physics will actually be useful all the way through an engineering degree, and all the way through an airborne career of virtually any sort. Theatre will not stand you in good stead when trying to study advanced aerodynamics.

There's nothing annoying about it, you can either study what you want or what would help your career. Regardless of whether a uni will "take" you with technology, don't you think that you'll find everything a lot easier if you actually do physics instead?

First Year A Levels here. My advice to you...
1) Don't bother listening to school careers officers, they do nothing, and know nothing - especially about aviation.
2) Choose 3 subjects...My teachers were like, you should do 4 or 5 because of the new AS Levels, but if you do, you will regret it. The amount of work, and the difficulty of each subject mean that if you get A's and B's in 3 subjects instead of say...a load of C's or D's, you will be looked upon better by possible employers.
3) A Levels should be your chance to move away from old style school study...It's the time to concentrate on, and excel in just a few subjects.
4) Theatre studies - It's a load of pants, don't for a minute think that choosing art-type subjects will be easier. Physics is easier than art or theatre any day...Believe me, AS/A exams are better than AS/A coursework.
5) Get hold of a copy of the timetable blocks for next year...do physics and maths, and try to pick another that doesn't clash - check out computer studies...it's not so bad.
6) If you are stuck between two subjects, decide on one on the basis of the teacher who will be doing it...no matter how much you dont like them or whatever, if you have a teacher who can explain stuff better, and clearer, go for that subject.
7) Be prepared when you go back in September to start working loads straight away...don't get behind in anything, it's really important.

Good luck with your GCSE's, do as much revision as you can, I p!ssed mine up and got 1A 5Bs 3Cs 1D 1E - I should have got all As and Bs but I as a lazy git back then...fortunately I'm now working my ass off to make sure I have a real aviation career ahead of me...

Reagrds,

Mike

Do Maths Physics and Chemistry
The rest are largely irrelevant

You can do any Science based degree with this i.e. Medicine Dentistry Engineering

Maths/Physics are the most relevant subjects for Aeronatutics

Theatre studies is a hobby and you want
a career - DONT YOU ?

By the way I work for a large Uni so I know
these things..

Careers advisers are often glorified leaflet distributors - dont trust them

Maths and Physics at A-level are tedious but useful. A physics degree, on the other hand, is tedious and useless, so don't do that... ;)

My advice would be to do the A-level subjects that you enjoy and are therefore most likely to be good at. To suggest that you will never make it as a pilot without a physics A-level/degree is absolute crap!

The requirements for almost every flying job include a basic understanding of maths; ie GCSE stuff. Flying involves a small amount of mental arithmetic - not a knowledge of sub atomic particles, chaos theory etc!

Choosing a wide spectrum of subjects gives you breadth of knowledge - I did English, Biology and Geography at A-level and a very arty degree, so I'm living proof an A-level knowledge of physics is not required! If you choose subjects you enjoy you are more likely to get the grades that will get you that sponsorship, rather than struggling (and maybe failing) something that is actually irrelevant. Many of my friends worked their nuts off with aero/astronautics degrees at uni only to wish they had relaxed with a geography/basket weaving course. If you want to be an engineer, get an engineering degree. If you want to be a pilot, do the academic subjects you are interested in, and show your potential employer you have an interest in flying through flying hours, knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject.

Best of luck!
:) :) :) :) :)

Maths mechanics is probably more useful to engineering at the start than physics, as the mathematical concepts required for engineering quickly get very complicated.

I too would forget about theatre studies. Timetabling problem is it? Remember for ASs you probably need five, and then go on to do 3 A2 levels. The problem is that if you do some subjects such as German to AS standard, the knowledge required is already 70-80% of an A-Level, and therefore requires more work. If you think 5 ASs are hard, try second or third year subjects/modules for a degree. (6 of them required if modular university each year)

Evo7, I hear and understand; you have my condolences......

i'd say Physics is probably more useful than Maths, I'm only a PPL, but GCSE maths is about the limit of maths you can do in your head, whereas Physics gives you lots of insights into fluid flow, electronics and other potentially useful cockpit related subjects.
Of course maths is required for university entrance for Techy/engineering type courses.... allegedly. Saying that I was offered a place on Automotive engineering, could have been Aerospace if i'd wanted, without it (took the course didn't revise got an N oops.)

Any admissions tutor for an engineering subject will look straight over the Theatre studies - not relevant, BUT participation in local thetre group = well rounded individual, also, and this is not a point to be lightly dismissed, theatre groups tend to be largly compssed of totty :)

I'd say do the Physics, Maths, whatever you want for the third and fourth, to an admission tutor it won't matter, just get good marks in them, and be ready to drop one of them after A/S if its starting to look tight for grades, far better to ramp up your grades one mark in three than one mark lower in 4.

I know the point system will change but 3 B's @ 8 ponits = 24 points looks better than 4 C's @ 6 points = 24 points.

Whether or not you get admitted with/without physics or theatre studies wasn't the point I was trying to make; I think you'd be daft not to take physics, because you'll actually need to know it to fly! You will have to learn some degree of physics in the course of a flying career, and an engineering degree. Surely it'd be nice to know some before you start?

By all means join a local theatre group if you're worrying about being a well rounded individual... seems a bit daft to fling away arguably the most important subject you could do as a young pilot because "there's no way you're not doing theatre studies." Make life easy for yourself later, do the learning now.

Tedious and useles: a physics degree. I think you are very mistaken, of course unless you have embarked upon a degree without considering whether or not you will enjoy it, then that is another matter. If you ever want to be an astronaut, then it or engineering is a prerequisite so maybe you should reconsider its relevance in flying.
Only at degree level, however, will the advanced physical side come into play, for example, physics at A-Level is a totally different playing field to fluid dynamics in engineering and the advanced engineering mathematics required in all such sciences.
If you are not going to do a physics degree and have the choice between maths and physics and not both, then maths I believe will be more of an advantage, as if you do economics, biology, chemistry, geology, engineering, biochem etc, it will be the maths that is a prerequisite, not physics.
Personally, I did both.

Do theatre studies outside school: to be fair, it is not academic, and in recent times the non-academic subjects have encroached too far into academic qualifications.

If you want to do a Physical Science, Engineering or Medicine at University, Maths, Physics and Chemistry are the A-levels to take. Do not consider anything else - people without these usually find a steep and sometimes insurmountable learning curve in their first year at Uni. It's important to hit the ground running and these subjects will give you the best preparation.

Technology is too vocational a subject to be of real academic benefit - it's better-suited to people going into technical jobs straight after their A-levels. Theatre Studies is viewed as a 'mickey mouse' subject - a waste of time - by many people including potential employers and uni admissions officers. Harsh, but probably fair given that it's not very relevant to life.

A-levels are the most important qualifications to have in the general job market, so it's important to get them right. Even with a degree, employers often give them more weight when deciding between job applicants.

Pdub's advice is great - if you want to be a thespian, do the academic A-levels and join the local theatre group - extra curricular activities like that will really impress at a Uni/Job application.

Finally as has been said, don't trust career guidance people as they usually don't know a lot about what they are giving advice on.

cheers!
foggy

[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 12 May 2001).]

Lucifer, assuming you are directing your comments at me...

Having done a Physics degree, masters degree and 98% of a PhD (with the other couple of percent being done as we speak), I can honestly say that, at the end of the day, it is pretty tedious, and certainly the vast bulk of the material is useless unless you are planning on working as a Physicist - and I wouldn't recommend that. I'd say that less than 10% of the time was spent on something useful, and most of that time didn't actually include any Physics. Working as a team, communication skills, that sort of thing, but not Physics....

Now, I haven't done it all blindly - my PhD has been worth it, and the rest is necessary to get there - but there is no way I would recommend a Physics BSc to anybody unless you were sufficiently inspired by the subject to want to go further with it. There are better degrees out there, most of which reached the 20th century before the rest of us left it...

(Aside)

By the way, a physics BSc is closer to Maths A-level than to Physics A-level which, when I did it, was a memory exercise with no understanding required.

A Maths degree, on the other hand, has nothing to do with either, and I'd have to say that if you thought a Physics degree was pointless (as I do) then you should see Maths.... ;)

Was once given the following advice:

If you like Maths at A-level do a Physics degree
If you like Physics at A-level do an Engineering or (Physical) Chemistry degree.

Having a Chemical Engineering degree myself I can tell you it's true!

As I understand it, the original enquiry from FlyFreeWbe (what??) pertained to what A levels he should do before attempting an Aeronautical Engineering degree. The answer to that has been given by many above: maths, physics, and just about anything else (but chemistry would probably be best).
However, many of you guys seem to assume that maths and physics at A or AS level are required to be an effective pilot. Believe me, nothing could be further from the truth. The exam syllabi for the various licences require a fairly basic level of maths - certainly no more than GCSE level. There is nothing that requires a detailed knowlege of physics; a fair degree of common sense and the ability to understand the books put in front of you is all you need on that score. Indeed, much of the 'physics' quoted or alluded to in the ATPL syllabus is, at best, incomplete, and at worst, totally inaccurate!
Lastly, in a real aeroplane, whether it be a PA28, a King Air or a B747, flying is more art than science. There are those who can demonstrate deep knowlege of aerodynamics, fluid theory, aeroelasticity etc, but it ain't worth a damn if they can't fly the aeroplane!
My dad was a very senior officer in the RAF, and had 4000 hours on fast jets (mainly Lightnings). He had a history degree, and still struggles with any serious maths. I did maths and physics at A level, and have never used that knowlege in 23 years of professional flying. There are many others I know at the very top of the aviation tree who never did maths or any science beyond age 16. Never hurt any of us! Unless you want to be a test pilot, or the airline you want to work for specifically requires maths and physics at A level, don't get too hung up about it.

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Scroggs
Wannabe Forum Moderator
[email protected]

WOW! I've found someone that actually ahs a similar problem to me!

I am coming up to my GCSE's in about 3 weeks (WHAT! 3 weeks, why didn't anyone tell me!) I have decided upon Biology, Physics, Geography and business studies to AS. Now, I was considering Maths, but I find that hard. However, Physics I find quite easy (?).

I would like to do an Aeronautical Engineering degree or an Air Transport degree but, guess what! The courses NEEDS Maths, and Physics is PREFERRED! So I can't do those degrees. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

My teachers at school seem to think that Maths would be extremely hard for me at A-Level and that I should choose subjects that I will do well in. My advice to you is to try and choose the subjects that you think you will do well in at A-Level and then get a VERY high grade for Maths and Physics at GCSE. :) That's my plan anyway!

Oh, by the way, try and choose two core subjects for A-Level. I know that BA will only accept applicants with 2 grade Cs or better at A-Level in core subjects. Not subjects such as Economics, Business Studies, or in yur case, Theatre Studies.

If you do want to do stuff in a theatre, go along after school, that's what i do anyway! :)

Hi, I had a similar problem on choosing my A-levels. Maths & Physics were not my strongest suits, a careers advisor told me in no uncertain terms that Maths/physics A-levels and an aero engineering degree was out of the question but I knew I wanted to FLY!!!!!!!!

I decided to be headstrong and forced my way onto maths/physics a-levels via AS levels and although struggling and never setting the world on fire as far as results went managed to get onto an Aero degree (via a foundation course) and got a bit more numerate at the same time.

Again, the careers teacher was proven correct, I was almost certainly not cut out for the degree and struggled. I managed to get a degree (just about).

Yes, the careers teacher was correct about me not being well suited for the maths/physics engineering thing, but what they didn't appreciate was that I was determined to fly aeroplanes for a living and that counts for a heck of a lot.

My route worked for me, it cost me a lot of time and heartache but that pales into insignificance when compared to the enjoyment I get out of my flying job. Of the people I work with, many came through the same route (most considerably easier than me!) and would suggest that if maths etc are no problem then go for it. However, and this is a BIG however -Some of the other people I work with have a variety of backgrounds (history, art, geography etc) and they suceeded their own way and are in no way less capable of the work. I can't help but think maybe I could have done something that I enjoyed (History, Politics etc) and was reasonable at for A-levels/degree, enjoyed life a bit more, and still been here -but the ends justify the means.

The important thing is a burning passion to fly, grades are always going to play a part but if you demonstrate your ability and determination to succeed, this will go a long way towards getting a professional aviation career. Get some interesting (aviation related) bits on your CV away from the educational environment and show prospective employers how much you want to fly.

So in conclusion, try to find a route that works for you, it might be maths/physics or it might be theatre studies, at the end of the day it probably won't matter but whatever it is stick with it and don't give up the ambition to fly.

Hope this helps.

I would say that it is much better to get a good grade doing a subject you enjoy than an average one doing a subject that you don't.

I hated maths, I had to take maths "O" level more times than I like to remember before I passed. Then did Theatre Studies, Physics, Technology "A" level and a degree in Theatre and TV with a minor in Technology. Worked in theatre, televison and a school before at 29 selling my soul to the bank manager to get the licence. I now have the great good fortune to be flying a regional jet.

Amoung my colleagues there are former teachers, RAF types, IT bods, train drivers, shop keepers, and used car salesmen and they have almost nothing in common apart from a resonable education and an overwhelming desire to fly for a living.

The airlines will recruit people with (1) a licence, (2)the right number of hours, and (3)enough wit to be able to aquire the first two. After that comes, good CRM(people skills), apparent loyalty to the company etcetera, etcetera, etcetera....and way down the the list aeronautical engineering degrees.

Do what you want to do to show the world you have the ability to gain good "A" levels & degree (good grades and enjoyment of a subject almost always go together). Then show the airlines you have the dedication and commitment to become a pilot.

Beware "career advisors" they are the devils work. If you do as they say you'll either end up as a meat packer or an accountant. I was told at 16 "you need to have more realistic career aspirations" when I said I wanted to be a pilot. Ha, Mr. B "look me now I'm on top of the world!" (Name the film and win a goldfish).

cheers
H-B-H

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Push the head and pull the tail.

Do the Dance thing...In a few years you may not want to become a pilot. Shock horror it does happen. Do the things that will make you happy, and dont let the others tell you what is good for you. If you really want to make it...you will.

My school quals are laughable, and my degree is adequate. My spelling is pants. Yet I hold a Queens Commission, own my own company and earn a five fig sum.

Chances are always there.

Well, there are many differences of opinion in here, some of it I'm sure, is fact. However I do believe the thing about careers advisors, most of them. I'd like to thank you for your support (or not) and that I really appreciate that there are others out there like me (FL390). It was also a priveledge getting a reply from the moderator. I think. :)

I have taken to heart all the evidence and I am contemplating my would-be future. My CA said I wasn't thinking, well I am...too much. My parents still have a meeting with him about all of this. I can say now that my fight will be less violent because you have helped me see reason, however dark and incredibly inky it is.

I do do a lot of out of school theatre and I hope to do more. Character is one of my strong points, as well as people skills. I just thought that it would be benificial, and fun.

For those who responding sympathetically, thanks, and for those who did so in a sarcastic manner..well thank you to. You helped hammer it all in.

Keep the constructive criticism comming. You could even have a debate about the easier subject of the two (T/s or Physics). Anyway, my exams started a week ago and I have about 5 weeks left (my last beng on June 14th!!) along with all my major subjects. Wish me well, cos if these go cruddy, you can sure as hell rule out my plans for A level.

Now, how many times have I said thank you?

yours,

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FlyFreeWbe
~WYSITWIRL

Best of luck, mate. If things go well, all fine and adandy. But don't forget, if things don't all go to plan, there is always another way to the dream.

Well, I'm one of the fortunate ones that doesn't take Art, a language or Latin as one of my choices for GCSE and so I don't start until the 4th June and I finish on the 19th. Can't wait till they're over!!! :) :) :)

Your point about character......I think that it is an extremely valid point. Most people will be able to fly a commercial airliner (as long as they are no completely malcordinated) and so these days I feel that the emphasis is put on your character. If you have a good character/sense of humour/easy to get on with then it will get you further than if you've got a type rating on a 777.

So, go for it and good luck! Perhaps we'll meet on a training course! :) Hopefully with a load of GCSEs and A-Levels behind us! :)

One more thing. Would you recommend Geography or French? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif Which would give me a more academic a-level (taking into account that I love both subjects) and which is more pleasing to the "airline of choice"?
[French and Geography are in the same block, one/other]
Your help is really appreciated

French, no doubt.

Having been a Maths/Further Maths/Physics/Chemistry (and electronic engineer..) geek I would say the following.....

Physics is probably the most relevant if you want to fly, to gain an initial understanding about all those things you will lean about in the tech's for the ATPL. Trust me, most of it is there! Maths, yup useful. But the other 2 - I like people in the cockpit who can offer different things, that probably means do what you like doing provided that you ain't going to mess up, and also make sure it will not hinder you on your chosen path.

CCCC.....ough

Wahey! You really are similar to me FlyFreeWbe! I'm going to do Geography as a choice for AS/A-Level. Firstly because I like it, secondly because I'm good at it and lastly because it will help a little for pilots etc.

This is because we study weather! I know its not that detailed compared with the full Met course but everything helps! :)

I'd therefore say Geog as French may not help you so much for a pilot except when you fly to France etc. But, GCSE French should help you enough with the R/T.

Having said all that, you should choose what you feel you enjoy the most and will do best at in both. :) Hope it helps!