greatexpact's, thanks for your candid reply regarding the allure of b.a., i'm full of admarition for your honesty.
i do however think that it's slightly naive, and no i'm not trying to be patronising, honestly!
as you said the're a coporate enterprise and by which of it's very nature, honour and loyalty are not words usually associated.
b.a. are far more than a glossy "worlds fave airline" commercial, and like everything else in life, have to be viewed warts an' all.sky-train and caledonian are past examples, the virgin atlantic improper practices and channel 4 undercover report more recent.
i'm not trying to burst any bubbles, if i was
young enough you wouldn't see me for the smoke from "me" pen as i filled out the application form. it's just when it comes down to it, you're flying the vast majority of people because for them it's either the right price, the right time, or the right departure point.as regards the pax, being able to say "london control this is birdseed blah, blah " doesn't come in to it.

[This message has been edited by schuler_tuned (edited 13 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by schuler_tuned (edited 13 May 2001).]

An excellent point made MG, I was originally attracted to flying when I heard about the pay etc...That was a few years ago now.
Now I am interested in any aspect of flying, regardless of pay. Flying big jets is all well and good, and something like a BA sponsorship is excellent, but if I got one, I would be tempted to move after a while, I'd much rather be flying classics like a Dakota for Air Atlantique... :)
Anyway, just thought I'd give my two cents...

Regards

Mike

Her MikeSam

Does Air Atlantique have any P51 mustangs online. Man I lOVE that aeroplane. I could listen to that engine forever.

Re Girt_bar's comments about not needing to be wealthy to learn to fly... wealth is relative term - your two jobs may be enough, for others it can be simply unreachable.

Flying, even GA, is by and large, a priviledge of the 'reasonably comfortable' - the cars in the average airfield carpark will testify to this, and for me, the 'Anything and Everything' you mention would have to include crack dealing and the occasional bank job ! :)

..and as far as Lucifer's comments on jealousy... yup, damn right I'm jealous :)

I suppose that for some, flying commercially is one of a number of desirable jobs on their shortlist, and for others, it's the very thought of holding the controls of a 767 as you break through the cloud ceiling into a beautiful sunrise... Being paid to do it is secondary (up to a point :) )

I am firmly in the second category (if you couldn't tell :) ) and whilst GreatExpectations is obviously looking beyond 'just the flight ops' (a goal equally as valid as mine, and one I sincerely hope she achieves), for me, nothing could beat being in that 767, in that sunrise, or in IMC hell inbound to Glasgow.... just gimme the chance !

Strangely though, I cannot see this approach working too well at a BA interview :)

There is a nice old dear :) in BA recruitment who must be loving this discussion.

:) :) :)

Wow - 'I only want to fly for BA' - this is just hilarious.

Now of course, if you want a full career as
an airline pilot you may as well start by
looking at the national carrier first. In
theory at least it should give you a job for
life and a decent salary. However, there is
a much bigger world of aviation out there
which can give different challenges, better
equipment even better pay if that is what
motivates you more than anything else.

Most of us in the business whether we fly
for BA or other carriers have come across
colleagues who have been turned down by BA
to our immense surprise with others accepted
which have defied belief. I'm not quite sure
what BA are looking for these days having
read through the posts on this thread - could someone enlighten me please.

If there are people out there who only want
to fly for BA and no-one else, I cannot help
but feel that their motivation is all wrong.
Of course if that is just the 'right stuff'
to show at interview then fair enough as long
as you don't actually believe it. Once you
have made it through into BA then I guess it
is a fair opinion to hold but proir to that
I would have thought that a desire to fly would be rather more important.

On a topical note I don't suppose that when David Coulthard began racing he said ' I only want to drive if I can have a McClaren' - was Rubens p****d off or what ?

Yep, ok - I admit most people who have posted here have good valid points. Different perspectives invite different arguments. At different stages in people's lives and careers BA may seem more or less attractive. Personally I can say now I won't ever moan about the pay, or the fact that my push-back truck is late. Any commitment to any job comes with a certain amount of bias towards the future, but if your own personal commitment is strong enough then I think these little factors won't matter much. The truth is, for all those who don't make BA - then of course its not the end of the universe. But equally, for all who do make it, it does mean the whole universe. Is there anything wrong with that? GE xx

Quite proud of my topic now - it's really hotting up aint it!! Still gutted about BA turning me down tho - seeing their planes flying overhead now is oh-so much more painful! Anyway, keep it up guys
Oh yeah and BIG congrats to Robin McIver who got accepted on the PTS

Cheers

Speak for yourself GE - If my push back truck aint there on time I'll kick his or her arse :)

Customer Service and all that :)

Tunny,
Airport congestion may lead to slight delays every now and then when it comes to fuel, tow-trucks etc. Kicking ass won't make it go any faster and you'll probably just piss off the already hassled ground staff. Just mark delay down to handlers and move on. Grin :)

GE

Just to save going back through all the posts
on this thread - are you actually flying for
BA at the moment, waiting for a course, or
still striving for a position amongst the
Nigel's and Nigella's.

Cheers

Just to add my fuel to this fire...

I worked at one of the commercial training schools and a large number of students were BA cadets. A few were fantastic characters, most were fine people and there were a few idiots.In other words, average people lucky and talented enough to get a sponsorship. What did amaze me was the attitude of a few who didn't want to fly and had to be pushed all the time.

I personally can't understand the attitude that it has to be BA or nothing but each to his or her own. In my humble opinion flying should be a passion and being turned down by one airline certainly wouldn't stop me applying and flying happily for another. You could always apply to BA later in your career.

This is just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone. Just another side to consider.

Cheers
Kanga

Well having been sponsored by one of those dishonourable and immoral charter airlines –removes tongue from cheek - I must admit to being slightly irritated by some of the BA snobbery exhibited here, especially considering the warm welcome I have received even before having begun training.
BA are a company just like any other - out to make a profit. Company culture however is a very different matter and I can understand someone wanting to fly for a particular company but IF you are really serious about the flying part as opposed to some perceived prestige, it makes no sense to apply for BA and BA only. As has already been said, you can always join BA as a DEP if that's what flicks your switch and it's worth taking the pay cut in the long term. As for 'I want to be a part of something greater' ie. BA as opposed to anyone else - Oh please.....

Knowing GE personally (oh err vicar) I can honesty put my hand up and say that I have never met someone as commited or dedicated to flying (namely BA)

Lets not forget folks that some folk have BA as their ultimate goal for financial reasons (ie not everyone can afford to even think about self-sponsorship)

GE is a fantastic person, a good friend and I hope to god that I get the privilege to get to share a cockpit with him/her (thought I'd keep you guessing :) )

So hows about a little less of the bickering folks? If the work is put in then we'll all get there sooner or later.

Tunny

Hear, hear tunny!!
I dont work for BA, dont want to work for BA and doubt if I ever will work for BA. :)Great Expectations is a great person! If GE wants to work for BA then great! GE's views are personal. It is all about personal choice. GE is TOTALLY committed to BA, and that has to be admired. It is good for BA because it means dedication. Most of us if we admit it have lost this over the years, so it is easy for us to forget what it was like! GE has been offered arguably the best sponsorship in the world. A great career lies ahead I am sure. This alone would mean that GE is more dedicated to BA than most!! Good luck Great Expectations.....I am sure you will be in that A320/B737 before too long!! :)
ps Tunny.... Good luck with it all mate! Wont be long now!! :)
Eff Oh. :)

?I'm confused?

How come the people who *claim* to be more committed to BA than to flying itself bothered putting themselves through the pilot selection process (sometimes on more than one occasion)? The queue to become a bean counter or middle-management person (or HR consultant..well.. er.. on second thoughts.....) is round the corner behind the wheelie-bins, and if in doubt, it's the short one.

Of course, if you get through the selection process then you have as much right to be there as anybody else, and I'm not trying to belittle your achievements, since, if you have all the options open to you, then it is your perogative to take them, whatever your motivation may be. That is my rational reaction....

However... My gut reaction would be to say: The BA CEP scheme is the best opportunity in the country for people with a burning ambition to be a pilot. The precious 200 places a year are too few and too valuable to be taken up by people who are "indifferent to the whole flying thing". If that truly is the case, then even aside, perhaps, from my own jealousy, it still saddens me that these opportunities are going to people who do not have the passion for flying to be able to fully appreciate them. If you want to work for BA, then work for BA, and enjoy it, but STOP CLUTTERING UP THE GUCCI FLYING OPPORTUNITIES!

I'm sorry if this sounds bitter and resentful. I'm sure you're all lovely people, and I mean that, but I'd be surprised if the same thought hadn't crossed everyone else's mind at some point, given the nature and purpose of the forum we are all posting on.

Goodnight all.

Pie

The 'leaders for business' programme is a bit more advanced than you think Pielander, with a huge number of applicants.

Marketing is not just for existing and potential customers. It is also used to stick two fingers up to the rest of the industry and to make employees feel better about the organization they work for. It can and is used as a form of indoctrination.

BA is an aspirational brand, for customers and employees. It’s excellent marketing paid from a huge marketing budget. Once one looks deeper I'm sure that it will become apparent that large organisations are usually as disorganized and incompetent as smaller organisations, they just cover it up better.

I’m with those who do not understand the BA or nothing brigade, but it’s up to them. It just seems a strange attitude to dismiss so much that is positive and worthwhile.

regards

edited for typos and rambling
------------------
Half man, Half jalfrezi.

[This message has been edited by Blindside (edited 15 May 2001).]

Exactly.

There are plenty of great opportunities for a fast-track career within any blue chip company like BA, and in a way, being a pilot is just one of those opportunities. This is exactly my point - if that's all you're after, then why bother going up against all those people to whom no other job will do? The other jobs are by no means a walkover either, and that's why they're such valuable opportunities, but I can't believe that they are anywhere near as competitive as CEP, for very obvious reasons.

As I said before, if you have the ability to become a pilot without being committed to that particular career path, then that's your perogative. Just don't be surprised when a group of people, who are mostly willing to face financial ruin for even the slightest chance of getting that elusive job, don't exactly see eye to eye.

Until I read this thread, I thought we were all here for the same reason, but it seems I have been proved wrong.

Pie

Tunneler, Eff Oh - Thanx! :)

I amnt gonna try justifying any of this any further. I have met some great people through BA, and some great people who work there have made significant differences to my progress through the last five years. I will never forget the people who have helped me get here and in return I will do my best for the company who have given me the wonderful opportunity to spend my life in the air. I only hope that some of you get to feel someday that you want to give your all in return for people who have believed in you. Its a great feeling. And I love BA for it. Tunneler, Ill see you up there mate, and Eff Oh - command in three years - what more can I say??/ GE x

GREAT EXPECTATIONS

I do admire your attitide up to a point. By being as passionate and focused and commited to BA as you claim to be - you will go far and you will be of an advantage to BA. However, the aviation industry, from experiece is a small world - we are all inter-related by a common passion. It's important therefore to have AS WELL AS the attitude you have, a broader appreciation and interest in aviation "outside BA" I for one am very passionate about BA - I worked for them for 1 year and thoroughly enjoyed it however it is beaurocratic and unfortunatly when you get online you are another number and don't stick out - you can however influence and have an effect on the people you are in immediate contact with. I for one would not have been able to get my commercial in the short term if I hadn't received sponsorship from BA - however I would still have built up on the PPL i have over the long term . For the sake of others in aviation it's important not to get stuck up and snoberish about BA.

Anyway - i just had to give my opinion on this thread - i do wish you all the very best GE and see you on-line soon :)

Absolutely, Lady Heathe. I agree with you completely in all you have said. However if it seems as if I am snobish about BA I will rectify that! I too have worked at the airport and so have a full appreciation of all aspects of the industry and the roles of all those involved. All I have done in this thread is give a personal viewpoint, I am not advocating BA. I think everyone should have their own reasons, otherwise whats the point? Of course bureaucracy exists everywhere, and Lady Heathe, just as you said, all I can do with my enthusiasm is make sure I am a good person for the people around me to be with! And that means people from all airlines, all handling agencies and in all countries!!
This is my last response GE xx :)

I have got to say that I have read some horses**t on this site before but this thread takes it.

The entertainment value of an argument between dreamers and corporate lacky's should never be underestimated.

Great Expectations, can we conclude that you have been admitted to the program? Congratulations, and I really do mean that.

However, when you're at EGLL and everybody's on board, and you're waiting for your pushback truck just before your slot expires (which would lead to several hours of delay, making your passengers really upset and wondering why they chose BA :) ), you're not really gonna be happy and cheerful and telling your captain (who is cussing and swearing) that that's just life and it's no biggie! Maybe the first time, yes, but a few weeks later when it happens for the fifth time, no. That's a bit naive.

The thing is (and I experienced this with BA), BA is an impressive company. Therefore, expectations are higher (I know yours are! :) ) and disappointment will be bigger. If you work for a small airline, you won't be suprised when there's no pushback truck, but when you're working for such a great, "well organized" company, it's just plain disappointing when such bad organization takes place.
I've had this almost EVERY WEEK when the pax would be on board and the BA gate agent wouldn't be there to pick up the papers, or nobody to start us up and we'd sit there for 20 minutes, even miss our slot sometimes.

Just get it into perspective, it's still just a company.

I completely agree with the previous mentioning that someone who wants to work for BA more than being a pilot, should try something else, so as to not get in the way of the people who desparately want to fly. It's the same thing with KLM and the result is that there are pilots flying that really don't give a hoot about flying and complain all the time. Which irritates me because there are plenty of people who'd do anything for their job.

GE,

I hope you are sucessful with BA, but I'm reading this thread with great amazement. To me the question is straight forward: Do you want make a career out of flying? Yes BA is on the top of my list too, but for gods sake have a back-up.

I'm quite sure that if other airlines such as Air2k, BM, Monarch, JMC & Airtours offerred full sponsorship BA wouldn't have as great an appeal.

JT8 :)

:EEK: This really is my last one...

Yes, I really want to fly
And any airline may have to wait for a push back for God's sake.

:rolleyes:

this elitism thing's nothing new in b.a.,you know.once upon a time it wasn't good enough to be just flying for b.a., you had to be hamble trained as well, how things change to stay the same!
one big sky shared by so many strange egos.
so you can't understand anyone wanting to fly for anyone else?, and if you can't you won't? ever read the staines disiaster report, or the k.l.m./pan am collision report? egos and elitism were the overiding contributions. the main consideration in flying is safety,safety and safety"!!!!
how many pilots would you aspire to fly with?
well, Mr. Richard Bach is one of mine, who summed it up quite succintly when he spurned an airline career with the quote that a short hair cut and a succesful psychometric test doesn't turn you into the best pilot.
the responsbility of flying anyone, for whoever, far out wieghs your own self sense of coporate worth.

GE,

I find it a little hard to understand that someone would be prepared to cut their chosen career short if they were unable to work for the company of their choice!

I personally have always wanted a career as an airline pilot-above all else! Yes, like so many other people BA has always been on the top of my list for airlines to fly for (for various reasons), and not least the fact that they offer a sponsorhip scheme that is second to none. However, my passion to fly as a career far exceeded putting all my eggs in one basket and limiting myself to apply for one airline sponsorhip! I am very passionate about the airline that I will (hopefully) work for and will give them the same dedication and commitment that I would give any other company that I am employed by.

If I had your perspective I would always be concerned about becoming disillusioned at some point with the airline, and wondering how it would affect me knowing that I had chosen a company above the type of career that I wanted to follow.

Does this therefore mean GE that if BA are unable to offer you employment after you have completed your sponsorhip then you will turn your back on a career as a professional pilot?

Anyway, that’s just my viewpoint for what its worth :)

Congratulations and best wishes with the training

JTJ


[This message has been edited by Jimbo-The-Jetset (edited 17 May 2001).]