Flight training in Australia
 

This is my first post, I've been a reader for quite a while though!

I am currently over in Australia working/travelling and would like to gain my PPL and then probably my CPL. What are the things I should be looking out for when I enroll in a flight school (JAA/JAR/FAA)? All these terms mean not very much to me, I of course know that they are standards that the various licences adhere to, but can anyone enlighten me on what each one means?

I am from the UK and so would prefer to work towards a licence which would allow me to work as a commercial pilot in the UK.

Thanks in advance,
Jimmy

Welcome to the wonderful world of flying, where learning all the abbreviations and regulations is harder than learning to fly!

Ok, I'll give it a go. JAA is the Joint Aviation Authority, an authority which sets guidelines which a number of European countries have agreed to include in their own regulations. JAR is the Joint Aviation Regulations, i.e. the regulations which the JAA has come up with. The two phrases are used pretty much interchangably, i.e. a JAA license and a JAR license both mean exactly the same thing.

The CAA is the Civil Aviation Authority - the UK ruling body, which is responsible for all the aviation regulations in the UK. The CAA has signed up to the JAA, so all of the UK rules comply with the JARs.

The FAA is the Federal Aviation Authority - the US equivalent of the CAA. The FAA is not connected to the JAA at all - the JAA is a European body. The same goes for Australian authorities - not connected to the JAA (or FAA) at all.

Ok, hopefully that tells you what each one means. But it doesn't help you figure out what to do.

If you want to work in the UK, flying UK-registered aircraft, you'll need a JAA license. Under the JARs, you can fly any JAA-registered aircraft with an appropriate JAA license from any JAA country. So you don't need a UK license - a German one would do just as well. The only problem is that I don't think there's anywhere in Australia which is authorised to train you for a JAA license. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me. The CAA website will give a complete list of everywhere you can get a UK license.

So, if you're looking to train in Australia, you'll probably need to get an Australian license. Then you have to go through the hassle of converting that to a JAR license - which isn't easy. I don't know all the details, but Redsnail has done this conversion, so she'll be able to help you out with more detailed advice.

Basically, it's going to be even harder for you than it is for most of us, unless you can get to Europe to do your training. Sorry.

Anyway, hope that's helped you understand the situation a bit better. Good luck!

FFF
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Jimmy,

Keep us posted with how you get on as I am thnking of headig out to Oz in a couple of years to do the full monty.

Redsnail, let us know the details of your conversion - how easy/difficult, price etc?
:cool: :D

big deep intake of breath
 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight,
Flying in Oz is comparatively cheap and if you get the right instructor equal to the best you'll get any where else in the world.
You'll be trained to be a pilot, not just an airline pilot. If nothing else, doing some hour building in Oz will be invaluable to your JAR CPL. ie you actually have to navigate and use the radio.
Hour building on a non Oz licence is a pretty simple affair.

Working in Oz is the tricky part. Unlike Europe you cannot log command (ie P1 u/s) time from the RHS so you have to get all the experience before going to the bigger airlines (Qantas being the exception). So, most people either instruct or head out the the north west and do a few years bush flying. This is great fun and you really get to fly.
After that, you head to a "city" and do some twin charter eventually moving to a small regional airline for the turbine time. Then you look good for Virgin Blue or Cathay (assuming no recruitment ban).
Unlike in the UK, your initial IR does NOT have to be done with someone from CASA. This means you don't have to waste time waiting for one to become available.

So how does this convert to a JAR licence? Well, I think only the PPL is directly convertable. :( The instrument rating will be converted at a minimum of 15 hours. You'll have to do the 14 joyful ATPL exams. (Having done the Oz ones, they will stand you in good stead to get through them). Then the IR conversion and voile, one converted Licence. Oh, you'll get a discount on the medical at Gatwick if you have a CPL from somewhere else.

On the CAA's website there is a lot of info about converting licences and CASA's website is extremely useful.

Have a look over in the Dununda forum. There is a very good debate about CASA FOI's and Industry delegates at the moment.

Ok my conversion.
I had a total of 4500 hours, with 1200 on them on turbines before I started.
1. Medical. GBP189
2. I did a full time ATPL theory course at ATA. GBP3600
add GBP92/week for accom and food.
3. GBP718 for the exams. I got first time passes in all of them. :)
4. Sept 11 happened and nuked all recruiting.

When I first thought about it, all I had to do was enough flying to get up to speed for the IR test. Then the CAA changed their mind and said that I'd have to do another full IR with one of their examiners. Since I had a full Aus ATPL with over 500 hours multi pilot all I had to do was a type rating with an initial IR flight test. ***I didn't have all of this info when I made enquiries*** This ended up costing me a lot of time. Note, TRE's cannot do initial IR's, only CAA guys can. Again, not told this when I made enquiries.

5. Type rating with Streamline with eventually an initial IR. This has taken something like 5-6 months. Cost ~ GBP9600 + CAA fees.
6. JAR ATPL lic GBP176

During this the CAA changed their mind and now say you only need to do a min of 15 hours to convert an ICAO IR to a JAR one. This would have saved me probably GBP5000!!! ($15,000) However, I now have a JAR ATPL whereas the other way would have got me a CPL with single pilot IR.

So, not including all my living expenses, buying a car, shifting stuff from Oz etc, it's cost about GBP18,000. ($50,000)

For an idea, $50,000 would be more than plenty to get an Aus CPL with CIR (command IR multi), ATPL subjects and probably an instructor rating.

Cheers for the info Redsnail, I have loads of questions for you.

What did you do about visas etc as I thought you needed them to work in Oz.

How long were you there?

Was the $50,000 (£18,000) from 0 - fATPL?

What are you doing now?

Cheers for all your help?:D

Hi jimmy
What you can do is train here, get your Aus PPL and build up your first 175 hours here, then return to the UK and do the JAR CPL modular course. Not much point in doing the Aus CPL unless you are planning to work here and have residency. Your hours here will count towards your JAR CPL.

email me if you would like more info.

Elvis,
I am Australian with a British Passport. Visas are something I haven't had to worry about. I lived in Oz for about 35 years.

The "first" Oz ATPL cost about $50,000 but that was over many years.
The "second" JAR ATPL cost $50,000 over about 18 months.
I am now working in ops part time and about to start flying the mighty Shed for Streamline.

If you don't want to live and work in Oz I would follow CFI's advice. She's a Brit now working and living in Perth, Oz. What she doesn't know about the vaguaries of flying in Oz from the UK isn't worth knowing. :D

Redsnail,

I would dearly love to do my training in Australia and then stay to live and work. I travelled round Oz last year and it is te most amazing place and somewhere were I would dearly love to make my home.

CFI, how hard is it to get a visa? I have heard many differing stories and my own research has proved somewhat fruitless.

All the best
Elvis

Elvis,
Have you checked the Dept of Immigration ?
There is quite a bit of info there.
There are a few different visas you can apply for. It just depends on your circumstance. If you have a relo out in Oz already it makes life a lot easier. The other way is to have a skill that Oz wants/needs.
If you have any "hassles" re the skills, best thing to do is a short course in computing that adds to your skill level. For some reason the Oz mob love that.
Don't just rely on info here, call the Australia High Commission (or whatever they are called in London) for the up to date info.

Link now working. :D

many thanks redsnail,

I work in IT at the moment so I guess that must count for something.
Many thanks for all the info

All the best
Elvis

Ok, firstly thanks for all the info!

I'm a little unclear about one thing.. If I decided to go for my PPL here in Australia, how do I go about converting it to a UK one on my return there? Is it simply a case of paying a fee and doing a little theory, or do I have to pay for more lessons in the UK?

Secondly, I don't want to live and work in Australia. My initial plan was to stay here for a maximum of 1 year and travel/work (in whatever industry), get my pilots licence (PPL now by the looks of it), then return to the UK and progress my career as a pilot.
Is it worth my while even getting the PPL in Australia and then paying for a conversion, or would I be cheaper to head off to Europe and do the whole shebang there? It would certainly save on the cost of conversions.

And finally... can anyone advise me on rough prices for PPL,CPL, and ATPL in Europe? And what is the cheapest country to do it in?

Thanks again for all your help!
Jimmy

CFI:

I hold a JAA fATPL/IR and instructors rating. What would I need to do to convert this to do some instruction if I was in Oz for a few months? I was in Perth last year and I know that Jandakot is pretty well full up with flying instructors but it's worth a shot.